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The Leadercast Podcast
The Leadercast Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

30. Naphtali Hoff on Being the New Leader

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Being a captain in the United States Army Reserve prepares you more than you might think to become Miss USA.

 

Whether you’re an experienced leader in a new leadership role or brand new to leading others, you may be feeling a little uncertain.

 

The wrong way to go into a new leadership role is not to listen at all and change everything all of a sudden.

 

The right way...? It’s nuanced, but you can do it.

 

That’s why we sat down with Naphtali Hoff about his transition from education leadership to leadership coaching--to hear the lessons from his book, Becoming the New Boss, that he wishes he had when he was a new leader.

 

“The challenges to a large degree are universal,” Naphtali said. “The idea of understanding what you're getting into and building relationships is frankly what leadership is all about.”



This is the leader cast podcast, helping you be a leader worth following. Hi, there, and welcome to another episode of the leader cast podcast. I'm Bart here to take you on a journey up the company food chain. That's right. On this episode of the leader cast podcast we're talking career advance, but not the fun top book of You know, how to see he's your dream job, or how to become the CEO of a fortune five hundred. No, and this episode I'm talking with Nat folly hop about the challenges that you will face the first day you sit down in your new leadership chair. nefally helps leaders who want to increase their leadership capacity and improve their teams effects. He is a performance enhancement coach who helps thousands as executives and leaders each year. He has two masters degrees and education and educational leadership, and also has a doctorate and human and organizational psychology. Now he's on the leader cast podcast today because he authored a book called becoming the new bought, the new leaders guide to sustained success, which covers the most important leadership issues with which new leaders have to grapple. So that's what we're going to talk about today in this episode. That folly, and I discuss the things you can do in your first days on the job as a new leader to lay a groundwork of success for the future, how new leaders can build trust with their new followers, the distinct challenges of balancing leadership and management functions and things you can do to prepare for the new leadership title you're about to take on. Before we get into this interview, I want you to listen to and add about leader cast and the wonderful ways that we help build the world with leaders worth following. So please listen to this ad and I will catch you on the other side. Leader cast is committed to filling the world with leaders worth following through live and experiences and on demand education. Leader cast exists to guide you on your leadership journey. Learn more about what leader cast can do for you at leader Castcom. So, like I said, I am really excited to speak today with Naphtali Hof, who is a very insightful leadership coach and, like I said, he has just authored a new book called becoming the new boss, the new leaders guy to sustained success, and I'm very eager to dive into this book with him. So welcome to the podcast that ally. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here and yeah, I love talking about the book and all things leadership. Well, we obviously talked about that here on the leader cat podcast. So my first question is what got you into this area of Leadership Coaching and leadership development? Yes, it's an interesting question and certainly did not take a straight line approach to where I am today. In a fact, I pivoted from school leadership. My background is an education I was a classroom teacher and college professor. Moved into school leadership relatively early on in a parttime basis and then eventually ascended to the role of head of school of an independent school in the Atlanta Georgia community. And I learned quite a bit in a relative short period of time and addition to what I had already learned and experienced, and for variety of reasons, I decided that instead of pursuing school leadership further and making that my long term vocation, which was the plan all along, I instead decided to leverage what I had learned and try to see if I could help other people in effect do their work in the best way possible and see if I could leverage my experiences in a way to support them, and ultimately, the book that I...

...wrote was designed to be the book that I wish I had, in other words, the book that I think could be very useful, and this is not exclusively even of the context of school leadership. The the application of it is broader, in other words, my intention, though I do use personal stories in vignettes and things of this sort, I try very hard to make it relevant to corporate leaders as well as small business leaders and other nonprofit leaders outside of education, because I feel that the challenge is, to a large degree, of our universal by the idea of understanding what you're getting into, building relationships, understanding, frankly, what leadership is all about, in the transition, for moving from the rank and file, if you will, even on the on the team management level, to becoming the boss, whether that's the boss of the entire entity, CEO type profile or somebody who is in a greater leadership role than in the past, all of that represents a significant change in what we do, how we do it and the role in which we see ourselves in and how we execute so although the book was intended and really does speak primarily to what we call new leaders, whether that's literally newer people transitioning within the field, everybody who I shared the book with for feedback, for insight, and then who has, who has purchased it and read it since then. I should say everybody, but most of the people have told me that the the concepts, they are universal in nature. I would say upwards of ninety percent of the content could be picked up by somebody who is new, who is twenty years in the field or beyond, and still find value, because we still want to continually improve and what we do in the leadership space and how we serve others, and the book really unpacks a lot of that. Yeah, you mentioned that. It's you said You wrote the book that you wish that you had what specific lead during the writing process did you learn that? You thought, man, that would have been really nice to know back when I was, you know, an active leader in the school. Yeah, so I think that the the question assumes, and and not not in a bad way. I mean it's a logical question to ask. It assumes that I started writing the book with a plan, the way that the most authors would write a book. In other words, you map out what it is that you want to include and then you begin the process. I actually kind of reverse engineered the book. What happened was I was I like to write. I certainly was not when I started leadership writing. You know, for many years I've written in other areas, whether education or other topics, parenting even, but I never really focused on leadership per se because that wasn't my professional space, at least not with a focus on leadership in contrast education, let's call it. But after I pivoted, I wanted very much to write more on the topic. I felt that it would be useful in terms of getting my ideas out there and kind of building my identity brand reach all of the kinds of things we typically do, and I started to identify areas that I thought were a value and kind of over time, I pulled together what had become at that point many blog posts, many of which have been published in places like Huffington Post and smart brief and other another online platforms, as well as, let's call it, local print papers and whatnot, and I pulled it together try to create a timeline everything from the backstory to what leadership is and the leadership role to laying your own foundation terms of being strategic about transitioning into that space, what you need to do, and then kind of moving from their identifying areas where I thought there were gaps and then writing additional posts around those gaps until I had, in effect, a complete manuscript, and then I started working with a publisher to, you know, edit it all and and get everything fully lined up, so to speak, to the point where I could be published. So it wasn't...

...like I went in saying this is going to be the target audience and this is going to be the content that I'm going to present. It was more I have all this content already. How do I now repurpose it, organize it and bring it into, you know, all under one roof for the benefit of a particular audience? And when I thought that, when I kind of started to think about, well, who can I serve most at least with this content and and what message could I convey that would have the greatest value, I said, well, wouldn't have this been nice for me, you know, to have had to be able to not only understand what leadership is, but really the practical elements of it, because it's all nice and good to talk theoretically, but leadership as a concept, but it's where the application occurs that's most practical and relevant for people, and I knew that, while I think I did some great things in a school leadership, I also know I made a bunch of mistakes and some of those were contextual relating to, you know, who I succeeded in the job and the kind of culture I walked into and expectations around that and timelines for change. You know, a lot of those things all needed to be done, but didn't necessarily need to be done the way that they were done. And in that you know, looking back in retrospect and having an honest vantage point as best as I could. Obviously we're all subjective to who we are and what we do, but to the degree that I could be objective and analyzing what I did well and what I didn't do so well and bring that to the to the for for other people to learn from. You know, I wanted to cut down on people's experience curve, because the research is very clear that people who succeed for the long term and have sustained careers and leadership for the most part, unless they have real, let's call a protexxia that's that's providing them with with ongoing support. In most cases it's the first you know bunch of months that will seal their future because, you know, if they get people behind them, if they built some momentum, if they have a successful runway, then a lot of good things happen afterwards. But if they struggle off the bad, if they, you know get caught up in some some headwinds and and get pushed back and things like that, it could often be very difficult for leaders to really bring to the for all of the goodness and all of the quality and all the skill because they've burned some bridges along a way. So it's an important initial piece in a leader success. Once they get past it, it I can't say that it's, you know, smooth sailing from there and it's it's, you know, Easy Street, but it definitely can be a lot easier because they're already established, they know their people, their people know them, there's a level of comfort and they proceed, you know, in a more typical and conventional fashion. So so I think the book really addresses an area for people who are struggling to figure out who they are, how they serve, how they get people on board, how they establish relationships, all those things, so that they then can really roll up their sleeves later and do the heavy lifting. Well, and I love that viewpoint of your idea. That really yours, saying success starts almost the you know, before even get into that new role, but really that first day in the new job, because laying a good foundation can help you build for the future. But I do want to kind of go back to a point you made of sometimes you get into this new role and you have all these great ideas but you're not really quite aware of the reality that had been in that role. So there's a lot of different circumstances or plans or ways that things were done. As a new leader, what are the biggest challenges we face and implementing our ideas quickly? Yes, so the the last word, I think, is the operative word here. You have to determine how quickly or not so quickly you have to begin to implement your ideas, and I think that we're all eager, let's put it this way. I think we're all eager...

...fundamentally to implement our ideas because we want to demonstrate that we deserve the position that were that were occupying. In other words, we want to demonstrate that we that they made a good decision and hiring us and that we bring the goods that we they with. You know, we bring the goods to the table. On the other hand, some of the best leadership strategy is to try to be patient and and not rush into making changes. For that purpose, it's so it's a different it's a different approach really, and their number of talks and books and whatnot, and examples, whether it's Steve Jobs coming back to apple, whether it's the main character in the five dysfunctions of the team, or many other settings, whether real or imagined, where the the leader really wants to be able to go into their new space and learn as much as they can. Learn who the people are, develop those relationships, understand the history, figure out what are the past pain points. How do we go ahead and secure some early wins that are low cost and, at the same time, do not demand a significant utilization of equity or capital in order to implement? So it could be, you know, something as simple as improving the way people get paid or improving the way people get, you know, their information communicated to them, or maybe some kind of esthetic or physical improvement, or maybe you know some kind of even if it's relating to the to the coffee station or whatever. You know something that's small that allows people to say, Oh, this, this person is starting to make improvements. It doesn't cost me anything. Neither you know the the team member, let's say, but at the same time I can see that they are beginning the process of identifying opportunities and how can we grow and then as the as the relationship deepens and as you feel you're in a better place, you understand what the challenges are, then you can begin to float ideas out there for feedback and see where the opportunity so I talked about, for example, having a making a case for change and what is that look like? What are some of the questions we want to be asking so that ultimately, when change is implemented, you can say that there's more people have had opportunity to voice their thoughts and people have that opportunity to buy in and and to push back as needed in order to really flesh it out a little bit more so that when you are moving forward, because change is difficult for everybody, no matter how long they've been in the position. We all have routines, we all have things we like to do and ways in which we like to do it. So change will be hard for almost everybody. But if we can go into it and saying hey, this is change we talked about, this is a change we agree to, we understand that if we don't do it, here the implication and so the potential threats to our organization. Whether using a squad analysis, are using a case for change, which I detail in the book, or any other platform, the point is people start to get a vision of what is the upside right, what's the potential? What are we shooting for? Why does this change require that? And the flip side of it is, what is the risk of doing nothing? And and and then, and they're going to be people who don't agree. You know you can't go for nor would I recommend that you go for consensus, because consensus is really hard to get to unless you're dealing with groupthink, which is not a positive either. You want pushback but at the same time you want it in a way where you still have the momentum. And I remember, for example, we were implementing a behavior program in our school. We wanted to be able to shift from a general, you know, type of let's call a student handbook, where you have certain behaviors that are acceptable, not acceptable, etc. Where everything is more catch and react to, a much more proactive values based type of program and there's a national program it's wonderful with that. Getting in all to the into all the details here, the bottom line is we identified for values, we implemented. They the behaviors we were looking to see in programs and in sentence, all these things around those values and for...

...the most part the staff was on board and they saw the value, even if they weren't necessarily all cheerleading the the endeavor. And I'd one teacher who piped up and didn't really see the value in it and started to kind of argue with it, but he did so well into our planning process and I could I could have self defended. I definitely had enough foundation upon which I could have said, look, you know, this is what we will, we agree to, and on and on that whole thing. But I didn't even need to because a different teacher, who actually was not very vocal typically at these meetings, she got up and said look, you know, we've already discussed this, we've already do agree to it. We're well on our way, you know. We're past that stage, you know, like that ship has sailed, and so sometimes the best way by which to move forward, as you're thinking about change or other similar ideas, is how do we get enough momentum behind it so that when it happens, it's almost as if people view it as their idea and, on top of it, it's no longer news because the discussion has already occurred. It's now just a matter of implementing and doing so in a way that ruffles as few feathers as possible. On the other and going back to your question about quickly versus slowly, it is important to point out, and I do devote a chapter to this in the book as well, that sometimes we need to go into what's called a change situation. Right there's a crisis, there's a financial issue, we're losing market share, there are other scandals or things that rock the company, and so sometimes a leader needs to go in like a proverbial bull in the China shop. Obviously still wanted to be strategic, but recognizing that the situation demands decisive, immediate action. So that's a different situation and that and that's rarer in nature. But when it comes to people who are going into organizations, if they educate the ones that they ultimately report to, whether that's a board of directors or others, and say look, you know, I could walk in here and implement all these changes we've been talking about and do so right away. But I know from experience, at least I've I've learned and I've listened to this podcast, so I know that doing so is typically not advisable. I'm going to ask for some runway here and whether you think that that will be six months, possibly even to to a year, where you're going to target some of the bigger pieces and in the meantime I'm going to be working towards understanding the culture, understanding the structure, listening well, developing relationships, making some small changes initially just to get some kind of momentum and then, you know, circle back to you, as I know more maybe in anywhere between. I would say, you know, one to three months and say this is what I've learned, this is what I think is more realistic at this point. You know, let's start planning around that, and then those people are more willingly accepting what it is that you put out there. So it's managing up, it's leading up, its managing expectations on the change side, and that's another mistake that I made from inexperience and others I did not know. I knew that there was a mandate for change because even though we were it was a blue Ribbon School of excellence, which I did not do anything for because that predated me by a couple of years. But even so, there was a lot of recognition from the search committee, from the Board of directors and from people in the community that there were gaps in the school that needed to be addressed, and so I thought, Hey, I'll just walk in there and demonstrate how great I am and make all those changes, and I didn't do it with enough pause and strategy and that ultimately required me to backtrack and deal with a lot of let's call it, relational repair. So so again, if I would have gone into it and manage that more effectively and known more about what this all entails, then I would have probably dealt with it differently and gained more support along the way. And that's again why I think a book like this could be useful, because you don't even know often what you don't know right till you go in there, and so it's a matter of, you know, shortening the the experiential runway so...

...that you have more information from the beginning and that you can secure agreements, understandings and partnerships that are more effective from day one, because you know what processes like these typically require. And I enjoy this thought that obviously all humans are willing to change, but reluctant maybe to change, and especially when a new person comes in, they may they always have some doubt, some they don't have any trust built up and may not be mistrust, but there's there's no real basis for trust with this new person. So I do want to ask because I think the point of all this is your kind of build trust among these new, you know, followers or your new teammates. So what are some very easy and quick ways that we can build trust among our new our new teammates, are new followers, even are new you know, as you said, our new direct reports. Yeah, it's a very important and often overlooked question and so thank you for raising it. It's interesting because I'm actually in the process of putting out an Ebook what I call the three eyes of effective leadership and the I stand for integrity, influence and impact. I'm not going to I'm not going to unpack all of them now. I do talk about this in the book in different ways as well, but trust really falls into that first category of integrity, because a person who is consistent and physical appearance in the way that they deliver on what they say they're going to do, that they have values that are clearly defined in their own mind and then communicate it to others, whether their personal values or ultimately, team values that are developed and maintained. Like, for example, you may want to use values to help define your hiring process, your onboarding process, how decisions are made budgetarily. All of these things ultimately emerge from what your values are, what you prioritize, and there are tools you can use to determine which values take precedents or priority, because you have, you know, hundreds upon hundreds of values and theory and all of them seem to be good right, seem to be things we want to aspire to, but they sometimes have their conflicts. But medical ethics is an area, and business ethics to a lesser degree, our areas where there's oftentimes a conflict and values and you have to determine what takes priority and and what, ultimately, you know, reign supreme. So, without getting too much into the weeds on the value side, if a person is a person of integrity, that alone people will see that, they will sense it and that will help to build trust. There is another model that can blanchard and with Cheryl holmstead of. It's called the ABCD trust model. It's able, believable, connected and dependable. Okay, so able is that you you resolve problems, you develop skills, you get quality results. Believable as about keeping confidences. It's admitting when you're wrong, it's acting in essence, with integrity. Connected is about being connected, listening well, showing interest in others, working well with people. And then dependable is being the responsible person, responsive, organized, timely, accountable, things like this. And so each of them have value. Right all, they're all important. I don't think anybody would say that you should, you know, mess up any of them. We all have personal strengths and areas where we're stronger, perhaps in these quadrants than others and just in general. As a side point, oftentimes we think as leaders that we want to be good at everything. I mean just not to not even as leaders as people, we want to be good at everything, we want to have what we might call general competence in all areas, but real leadership in most cases is about managing your weaknesses while accentuating your strengths. In other words, it's about identifying what do you really really good at, where's your passion, where's the nexus between those and how could you drive those to the highest level, and then utilize...

...delegation and other similar techniques to find the right people around you to support you and the team and the company or organization and areas where you don't have that same level of competency. So if you're not super dependable, for example, you may need to have somebody who manages your calendar and make sure that you go to where you need to be in this kind of thing, so that you could do what you're really good at, which is you know, I have a client, for example, in real estate, who's just I'll use the Yiddish for a moment. He's a Schmooser, you know, he's a great he's a great people person, he talks to people, he just loves and for me, by the way, that's very difficult because I'm a card carring introvert, without getting to all the specifics of introversion and extra version, all the benefits. And that, by the way, was a sidepiece because my predecessor was an extrovert and I was an introvert and the everybody just schmoozed with him and that wasn't my thing. You know that that's all part of what you need to be thinking about. So you might be great at being connected with others, but you're just not organized very well and you'll follow you'll forget to follow up and you just won't be you know where you say you'll be or how you'll show up at this kind of thing. So maybe you need to find somebody else to help you become at least satisfactory in the area of being dependable, so that your greatness in the area of being connected can really shine through and it won't be viewed as having this huge, disconnected and massive gap between different quadrants of your trustability or trust factor. So these are things that obviously we're just touching on the surfaces of them, but these are things where, if you can follow the ABCD model, be a person of integrity kind of you know, walk the walk, the talk and show up every day ready to connect with others. I think in most cases you're going to build a lot of that very quickly and that will allow you to then move forward with all of the various initiatives that you think are necessary to help grow the company or move it in a different direction. Well, speaks to me. I definitely am on the very good at the connected side. Definitely have some areas of improvement and the other three areas of trust factor. So it's a very relevant anecdote that you shared there. I think all of us have were honest, would have the same thing, and I believe that they're I'm pretty sure there's an assessment, but it definitely is important to emphasize or reemphasize that oftentimes, when it comes to leadership, it's no longer about technical skill. You know what it is that I am capable of doing might have gotten you to where you are today, but now there's a new set of expectation. So, for example, in an educational context, you might be a great classroom teacher, but what are you going to be able to do to become a school leader and really motivate others? Because it's a totally different set of skills. Your communication needs to be stronger, you need to be able to think about, you know, the big picture, not just as you were little neck of the woods, and I think that's true for any type of organization or company. Right, you rise up the ranks, you do what you do very well, but the pivot now has to go for me to wee, not only because it's no longer about getting recognized per se, but it's really about pulling together the attributes, quality, skills and talents of your team. And so the best leaders know that they don't have to be the ones doing the heavy lifting necessarily, as much as putting getting the right people and then, as Jim Collins would call it, you know, getting the right people on the bus, and then positioning them for success and figuring out what can I do in more of a servant role that's going to empower my people, give them the tools to succeed and then ensure that they step forward and get the work done. Well, I gain we're here with not tally Hoff, the author of becoming the new boss, the new leaders guide to sustained success, and he has a performance coach, performance accelerator. I think is the way that you describe yourself, and I love that term...

...you do. You just kind of talked about this challenge of being an extreme performer and then having to transition into a leadership role and I want to touch on that real quick because I think that's one of the biggest challenges of becoming an actual leader and for most people, are first real leadership role would be, you know, a manager or director, maybe department or or something. You know, a sales manager, sales director. But when you take on that leadership role, when you take on that role of having to manage other people, you know you're not performing the same way. So you have to adapt your your personality a little bit, but adapter your way of thinking, adapt to your daytoday processes. What are some ways that we can prepare for that transition from the high performer to the people focused manager or leader? And we'll talk about the difference between management and leadership in a little bit, but just going from being a performer to a manager and how can we prepare ourselves for that? It's a difficult question to answer in the sense that it requires more of a rewiring, I guess, in the way that we think. But I think that's really the most important piece here is that we have to start to think about how success is measured and what our role is right because oftentimes in the past we just walk into the office, we roll up our sleeves. You talked about sales, so we can talk about that. It's a matter of picking up the phone, getting my calls in, following up with leads, all those kinds of processes, and there's no it's a very, relatively speaking, it's a narrow and my opic focus. It's about doing the work and getting it done. But now I have to take a step back and say to myself, well, what do I, as leader, need to be doing? Am I doing sales? That certainly could still be part of what of your role, but you also need to be thinking about how do you get your people to perform better, identify you know your staffing levels, identify what your goals are and ensure that you continue to move toward your metric that you've set for yourself, together with your team's help. So it's a matter of reimagining your work, reimagining your role. Start to identify what are those actions that, if you do on a regular basis, are going to produce the best results or the most impactful results in your new role, and then keep those front, you know, front and center, visually available to you, so that it's continually top of mind for you. And then what you want to do, like for anyone who wants to be productive, is to start blocking out time, start scheduling the things that need to get done, whether it's meeting with team members, making calls, following up with constituents, you know, planning for meetings or other types of things, all of that, the more scheduled it is, the more you will ultimately, you know, be effective, because to be a leader now means to be pulled in a thousand different directions, and it's through Le Setting, it's do time blocking, it's through, you know, shutting the powering down so that you could power up at a later point. All of these are strategies that leaders can be using once they know, again, what is it that I need to be doing that's going to give me the greatest chances success? And if you're not sure, and that, by the way, is an important piece to Qatar to unpack briefly as well, because oftentimes, frankly, we don't know what we need to do or what's going to drive the most success in our scenario. Somebody who's been a sales rep for a long time, or maybe I've been managing a team, they still have a certain limited view on what needs to happen and there's certain aspects that they've never been tasked to deal with. The now all of a sudden they're responsible for so they may do very well getting a coach or even, in some respects even better, a mentor, Somebody who's walked a mile in their shoe. Somebody could say these are the things you need to be doing. Cem Entering and coaching.

Even though they're often lumps together, they're really not the same. A mentors more about been there, done that. This is what I think. Obviously a mentor wants to sell you use a coach approach, which will unpack in a second, but fundamentally a mentor wants to be able to lead from experience, where a coach is not walking in typically with an agenda. A coach is walking in and saying you're the expert, you know what you need to know deep down. My job is to help you identify what those are. UNPASSED, I get create awareness around it and then take definitive action that's going to lead you to a better place. So a coach is someone you typically will pay. A mentors often time somebody who's volunteering their service, although perhaps there's a financial arrangement with the point is usually a coach is more invested, because a mentor is typically doing you more of a favor. But each one has value and you really do want to find a mentor, if you can, who can give you even if they're not better to find somebody who's experiences don't line up exactly with what you're trying to do but have other qualities, good listener, invested in your success, things like this, which I do unpack in the book, rather than have somebody who has an exact replica of their timeline and of your history but as a person, really doesn't have the qualities necessary or desirable to be the mentor that you're looking for. And I enjoy your discussion of the difference Throen coaching and mentoring, because I think we all, whether we know it or not, we have mentors in our life. But you know, a coach is really someone who can take time to fully understand your actual situation and obviously you're in a position where you you coach their leaders. So I'm curious what steps you take to help understand and help other people perform better in a leadership role. So I mean my personal approach is a little bit less prescripted than perhaps other coaches. You know, some couches use a you know, a Fox step plan or whatever they're whatever their language is that let's use this assessment, let's let's follow this particular path, and then you know that that's how they do their coaching. I usually try to reverse engineer by thinking about what are your biggest challenges? Okay, and sometimes people don't even know what they don't know, so I have to help them by asking questions. What about this? What about this? What about this? And then we kind of take it from there. But in most cases it's about you know, what are you working on? What are your challenges? What are the things that you think will at will provide the greatest value for you? So it's not like I'm walking in and saying here's my curriculum. It's more let me hear what you are experiencing and then let's go from there and see what action you can take and what things you can work on. That's going to drive, you know, your team and your company's success. So once, like I said, so once we have that, it can go in a hundred different directions. Somebody feels that they want to have a greater impact as a leaders will work on their executive presence. Somebody feels that they have historically not had great people skills, so will work on enhancing those, their emotional intelligence. will use an assessment. Often will unpack what those soft skills are, human skills are the people need and why those are important, and then try to identify areas where we can improve. All of these things will be driven by the initial conversations and the you know, the the intake. But from there we try to become very strategic and then stay focused on what are you going to do between now and our next session that's going to move you closer to your goal and how can we, you know, measure that quantifiably to know that you've made progress or not? Like you thinking about the smart model, for example. So you want your goal to be specific, you also want it to be measurable. But that's the SM of Smart Coles, because once I know very specifically what I want to do, that I can measure right. For example, if I want to become more influential as a leader, that's a very difficult thing to measure.

What does that look like? Right? Where are you now? And so we'll use maybe a scaling exercise, like a one to ten. What would what would the most influential leader look like to you? That would be a ten. What would at least influential person look like? You very ineffective. That would be our one. And then we identify. Where do you think you are today, and why do you think so? In the person, might say a five or six to seven right. And then once we have that number, let's say it's a six, how do we move you two, an eight? But we're not going to go from six to ten because that's typically too big a leap. But how do we move you incrementally along the path? What steps need to be taken? This kind of thing so creates a visual and a create a goal and the actions that you're going to take are measurable and concrete enough that you can then hope that you're moving along. So it might be I'm going to schedule more meetings with my team, I'm going to identify my personal values and communicate them with others. I'm going to set my team down around a value sheet and see if we couldn't identify what are our company values that we could communicate internally, you know, on our website, to our constituents and to others, so that everybody knows really who we are what we stand for. It's like it would Simon Snic we called knowing your why, but what really drives you as a team of company, etc. All of these things are ways by which to become more influential and once you do it in a concrete way, you could check it off Itso yes, I did it and this is what I think the impact was of that and base off of that. Now maybe I've moved up a little bit. You know, here's something else that we can consider doing, and so follows that process. Now I want to I said I wanted to talk about this specific questions. I'm going to bring it up now because I think this is kind of building off of what you just talked about. There's a huge difference between managing and leading people, but often times, as we actually every time we move up the ladder, we're grabbing more manager area roles but also taking on more leadership roles. How do we navigate those two levers, if you will? You know, sometimes you got to dial up morelot management, sometimes you dial up more leadership. How do we navigate those waters of management versus leadership? Right, and I think it is important to say, number one, that they're different and, number two, that we need both. Right. So so for because oftentimes, you know, leadership gets all of the you know, it's the it's the more exciting or enticing term, perhaps, but it's not. But I wanted to keep this as a family program I'm just kidding. But but the point is so so John Cotter, for example, a leadership guru. So he says, just to quote him for a moment, we need superb management and we need more superb leadership. We need to be able to make our complex organizations reliable and efficient. So that's a management term. We need them to jump into the future, the right future, at an accelerated pace, no matter the size of the changes required to make that happen. And that, of course, is a leadership angle. So it's a matter of you talked about a ladder. So Stephen Covey talks about management being efficiently climbing the ladder, whereas leadership is determining is the ladder up against the right wall right? So it's two parts of the same coin. One is creating the vision, the direction, thinking out into the future. Where are we today, where do we want to go and what are the steps we need to take? And once that's in place, management is about making it happen. So it's less dramatic because it's more the day to day grind. It's more the oversight of process. It's less about, you know, taking people to the hilltops. But if you only have leadership and you're all about vision and you can't then, you know, implement and actualize that vision, then you're really not going to be super effective either. So whether it's you taking on the leadership and the management roles and wearing different hats at different times, or having managers or members of the team that will make the The the vision come to life, where you're providing the...

...impetus for that in the direction, that's all fine and good and every circumstance may be different, but you do need to have both and you need to have the right kind of personalities leading both. And then they put those processes into effect and they do a great job managing those and some people have more of a innovative and creative way of looking at things. It can see things beyond the here and now, and those are the kind of people who, if they have the other qualities right do, they still have to connect with people and they still left to, you know, be able to bridge the gap between their vision and the people who are going to make it happen. But those are typically the kind of people that can lead because they can motivate, they can, you know, drive people beyond where they are today. And change is so, so important in our environment because we live in a world where change is just the new normal, and so if we're not able to think beyond the processes of the here and now, we really can't be prepared for tomorrow, and then somebody's going to walk in and he's going to do what we do and do it better, and then we're going to lose our competitive advantage and who knows what's going to happen with our company. She really do need both. Well, I appreciate that insight and I do want to now transition to the final leadership question I have for you, which is we talked about leadership. We talked about management that we talked about the ways that we can make an impact early on in our new leaders brawls. But overall, what would you say defines a leader worth following? Often times we have this Hollywood vision of what of what great leadership is. You know, we see people who are very charismatic there, great in front of the camera. Maybe they're doing all sorts of exciting things and they find a way, intentionally or not, to have the spotlight shine on them. But oftentimes the greatest leaders, so we don't even know, based on my answer, that these are leaders worth following necessarily. But oftentimes the greatest leaders are what Jim Collins calls the level five leaders. Often their introverts, often they stay out of the limelight, their focus mainly on getting really, really clear about not only who they are, what their company does, what is our strategy, and then being very focus on execution of that strategy, not so much about getting, you know, drawing personal attention to to their work, but serving the people around them. And so I think you know you it's not like you necessarily, if you're in a company, you can't choose your leader, but certainly if you have the opportunity. If you're choosing between cultures or environments. Let's say you're trying to select a position, you have a couple of opportunities in front of you. You may want to go into the space where it is understood that you can operate from a perspective of supporting others, where the notion of Servian leadership is really the priority and that that we are going to focus less on garnering media attention and things like that and just making sure that we're doing our job as well, because in most cases, if you do that and your strategically aligned in those kinds of things, all the accolades will follow. But if you have a situation where somebody like a Leiah coca type personality who's always about grabbing the spotlight, in most cases those don't end well. And so I think that, whether you are moving into the position you're in a position you're looking, you're looking to hire somebody and on board them into leadership a man you know, understanding where their priorities are and the fact that ultimately they recognize that they cannot do great things alone and great things only come through teamwork and team development and all of that. If that is something that is prioritize and emphasize in the conversation. That person, in most cases, will deliver great results. Well, thank you so much for all this very intellectual thought on leadership and how we navigate those weird journeys from performing...

...to managing and leading. You have a lot to say about this topic and you have a lot of resources about it. Where is the best day that we can find this wisdom that you have? Thank you very much for the question. The best place to go is to my website, impactful Coachingcom, and you could find out everything from the specific services that I offer, as well as a blog and leadership podcast that I have of my own, where I invite great success, you know, leadership successes, to the conversation about what leadership is and how one can augment their leadership in the work of others, as well as finance. Social Media, Linkedin, is where I hang out most, but I have I'm active on facebook, instagram and twitter, and if you're interested in getting a copy of this book, which I think has a lot of resources UN packs a lot more even than what we've been able to discuss, you could find it on Amazon. Again. The book is entitled Becoming The new boss and you know, certainly would love to get your feedback if you do grab a copy well, thank you again so much for joining us here on this episode of the leader CAS podcast. It was very enlightening and hope that you are able to contribute with us in future. Thank you a pleasure to be here now. You can listen to all of our episodes of the leader cast podcast on leader Castcom Stitcher, itunes and any other podcast or that you may have. Don't forget to interact with us on twitter, facebook, instagram and Linkedin and use Pashtag leader cast podcast to interact with the show now. Thanks for listening and go be a leader worth following. Thanks for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.

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