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The Leadercast Podcast
The Leadercast Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

32. Greg Bustin on What Makes a Good Decision-Maker

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Whether you're a seasoned leader or you're aspiring leader, you're in the business of making decisions. 

Wouldn’t you love a guidebook for decision-making?

I was excited to bring onto the Leadercast podcast an insightful leadership coach and author, Greg Bustin. (He wrote our book of the month for July, How Leaders Decide!) 

Greg’s book is 52 vignettes intended to be read weekly, which feature decisions made by leaders during some of the biggest moments in history, from Julius Caesar to George Washington.

We talked about leadership, decision-making, evaluating decisions, and how accountability is essential to leadership success.

This is the leader cast podcast, helping you be a leader worth following. Hello, they're and welcome to another episode of the leader cast podcast. I'm barked ready to dive into an historical look at great decisions made by great leaders. Or maybe it's good and bad decisions made by great leaders. You know, it's really interesting. If you have followed us, you know that our book of the month for the month of July two thousand and nineteen was the book called how leaders decide, a timeless guide to making tough choices, authored by Greg Buston, and I am honor to have greg on this episode of the podcast to talk about those decisions that great leaders in history made. And, like I said, they weren't all great. They were sometimes bad or sometimes good. It is an interesting look at not just the fact that the decisions were made and kind of what happened before and after, but how and why those decisions were made. Now Greg Calls his book a, quote, brief history of the world's biggest decisions. It covers fifty two impactful decisions that history's greatest leaders made throughout their careers. Some of them are decisions they made early in their careers, some of them in the middle of their careers and some of them were the career defining decisions that they make. It is available on Amazon, Barnes Noble and other brick and mortar booksellers. But Greg is more than just an author. He's a leadership coach who helps executives, managers and organizations established work place accountability and strategically grow their business. So yes, he has this wonderful book out now, but we wanted to bring him on to the leader cast podcast to talk about all those things that he helps great leaders do better. Now, as I mentioned, how leaders decide was the leader cast book of the month for July two thousand and nineteen. But now Greg is here to talk to us about what he learned through the process of writing this book and what he has learned from helping leaders every day become better decision makers and better team leaders. But before we dive into this interview, here's an ad for leader cast now and I will catch you on the other side. Leader cast now is an online resource for your leadership development. Get the solutions to your leadership challenges on any device at the moment you need it. To learn more, go to now doubt leader castcom Greg thank you so much for being here with us today. Back a lot moren't glad to be here now. As I said, you wrote you know how leaders decide. It's a historical account, if you will, of decisionmaking and for someone who's a little bit of a history nerd like me, you know I enjoyed the look at something that's not just this is what happened. It's more of a why did this happen or how did we get to this conclusion? And I just really want to ask you, first off, you know what was the inspiration for this book? Why did you land on this type of a topic? Well, I guess, like a lot of like a lot of things, I landed on it somewhat accidentally. I write a write blogged that are read by folks all over the world and I coach executives and I speak all over the world and it seems like that if you're in business, you're okay to hear theories, but you want to what you want to know is it's like, well, what, give me something practical, tell me something that actually happened, don't give me a theory. And so you start, you start there. If you're a leader, you're in the business of making decisions, and so people are interested in decision making and just over the years I started writing here and they're about some of the biggest decisions in history and these were, you know, about eight hundred word blogs, so they're very they're very snackable, you know, kinds of excerpts or vignettes, if you will,...

...and I got a lot of feedback on that from from folks all over the world. And I've written a book five years ago about Accountability and I've done a lot of research, a lot of original research, talking to some of the leaders as some of the most admired companies in the world. And this I wanted to go a little bit different direct. I didn't think that I would end up doing as much research as I did, but I ended up reading about three hundred books to write this one and just came across all of these great stories and so this is it's really a collection of decision making, not anniversaries in history, but I really wanted to zero in on when the decision was made, how was the decision made and at how do these things that happened a hundred years ago or five hundred years ago, or maybe even a thousand years ago speak to us today, whether whether you're a seasoned leader or you're aspiring leader, you're in the business of making decisions and I wanted to create this right, that right this book to serve as a guide for decisionmaking. Well, it certainly does that point. I think the greatest way to describe this book is almost a, as you said, a bitesize guide to how this these decisions were made, but really a great way for a leader to read. There are fifty two chapters. If you haven't read the book or looked at the book, they're basically fifty two chapters, fifty two decisions that were made and you can read one a week and try to apply that what you learn from that story throughout your week and hopefully by the end of the year you're a much better decisionmaker. But you don't just talk about good decisions that like, you talked about all types of decisions, whether they turned out well or not. What is do you think the biggest takeaway a leader can clean from this book? What I found is that there there are seven behaviors that that distinguish decisive leaders in when you look at that, and is you, as you point out, you know most of these examples and it is it's meant to be read weekly. We're talking about coming out with a journal product later this year where you could actually jot down your notes, because there are there are three questions that we pose in each of the fifty two chapters, and so is I is. I was collecting these stories and doing the research. What it all funneled down to were these seven behaviors, and I think those are the takeaways for today's readers. Is that. Number One, you've got to believe deeply. You've got to you've got to understand what you stand for. Some of these, these people that were making decisions, knew they were in the spotlight, like George Washington. The decision, the decision that we highlight, was actually how he decided to say goodbye, because he knew that everything that he was doing was setting a precedent, and so he believed very deeply. You know about about certain things. Secondly, confronting reality openly. It's like Hey, we've got, we've got we've got to say what the facts really are and we've got to confront those openly. Number three, cultivating curiosity in a relentless fashion. We talked about William McKnight, one of the great leaders at the M company that really set them on the path for being one of the most innovated companies in the in the world, and he really created a framework where he allowed people to do mental doodling where they could, they could work on anything they wanted to one day out of every week and his belief was that it would it would create all of these great products, which in fact it did. Number four, engaging meaningfully. Number five, deciding speedily. We talk about the fact that doing you know, no decision is a decision to do nothing, and baking.

So this is so this need to it's like, look, you got to know what you stand for and then you've got to gather these facts and then make a decision. Number six, adapting proactively and number seven, executing dependably. So the challenge for me is that, as I was posing these questions in each of the fifty two chapters, you know, I couldn't just say that the lesson was persistence or courage or whatever it is. The questions had to all be different so that they would tap into something and create an opportunity for reflection in each of these stories. So I think there's a there's a lot there. You know, one of the things that I said is that I did read two hundred and fifty three hundred books to write this one book. And and there's a there's a complete bibliography if you're interested in you know, for instance, the the story of being only female recipient of the Congressional Medal of honor. You know, there are there are three great books about Mary Edwards Walker that you can read. You know, if you're interested in, you know, Queen Elizabeth and how she made the decision not to marry in order to create, in Rebuild Great Britain into a powerhouse. There are dozens of great books to be read. This is really designed to be really sort of an appetizer into history that's backed up by a lot of a lot of research and it's designed to create opportunities for for reflection for today's leaders. Well, it's very curious that you have so many different types of stories. I mean literally, the story about the Beatles auditioning George Martin is one that you know. I don't think as a from a leadership standpoint we would think, oh yeah, that's totally a leadership story, but it is. What does that say about how we as leaders need to few our everyday lives still from that Leadership Lens, because I think this book is a great example of not everything is that's a sairly a world changing decision, but sometimes everything can be one of those world changing decisions. Just the stories and here fantastically simple but also profound. So when we look at an everyday life, how do we take from from these great leaders how we can be better decision makers, you know, at home or with our friends? Well, I think, for instance, with with the Beatles, the lesson is that it's like hey, when do you when do you rely on facts and data and when do you use your gut to make a decision? Because the facts in that instance, you know the the Beatles. The Beatles came in pretty nervous. They were actually hung over from an all night drive on New Year's e from Liverpool into London. They had so many songs it just felt like a hodgepodge. The drumming was off, the performance was mediocre, and yet George Martin saw something that said look, there's potential here, there's chemistry here, and he and he made that bet. Yeah, and so I think you know that's that's that's that's the lesson there. I think. You know, we have my wife and I have a daughter who turns twenty eight this this month, and I'm always saying that everything is a lesson, everything is a test. You know everything that happens. You know there's there's something out there that you can glean from it, and I think that you know, and in this case you know people with some people have asked me, will you know how come you you went so far back on these events? How come you don't have anything you know that's any more current than you know a year ago or five years ago? And the reason is pretty simple. The reason is I wanted people to be able to say, here's how that decision played out and this is why a decision that was made not knowing whether it would play out...

...or not ended up being either a really great decision or being a really bad decision, like the decision to lower or at large, the staircase in the titanic, which cause the water type compartments to be lowered, which meant when they finally hit the iceberg, the flooding occurred twice as quickly as it would have if they had not made that decision. And so, you know, you look at decisions like that, you go wow, you know, they all didn't turn out right, but for most of these people they were really grounded in a in a set of values that they knew they were guided by doing the right thing. And I think that, you know, in the in the time that we're living in right now, knowing who you are, knowing what you stand for, I think that that those are those are important things that never go out of fashion. I think that, you know is we look around about, you know, what leadership looks like today and we see a lot of bad leadership, especially in politics, on both sides of the aisle. And you we have, we have, we seem to have moved away from the ability to talk genuinely about, you know, the the implications of decisions and respecting other sides and other points of view and taking a longer view at decisions that were making that we're making today. And so I think that there's just there's a there's I just think decision making is under the microscope to many and I think, I think that I think that this book provides some some vignettes for folks in a very accessible way to reflect on how decisions are being made in their world. Well, I think something that I took from this book to personally was, I mean you you bring up stories about like Julius, Caesar, you said, Queen Elizabeth. Those leaders made decisions and fairly had to live with them for the rest of their lives because the way that our society has progressed, as there's so much feedback, information, data, sir, anyway that you want to get almost real time feedback on a decision you made or how a decision is affecting you is immense. And so one thing that I took away from this book is All these leaders made decisions and, as you said, what they felt was grounded in the truth or grounded in what they felt was the best. But nowadays, I think for leaders we still feel like we have to stick by a decision, but we have so much information that we can use that we can go back and say, Hey, you know what, maybe I was wrong. You know, maybe we shouldn't wide in the staircase of the titanic. You know, because we ran these we ran these tests and we found out. But it's not so. I think sometimes the challenge for leaders turns into evaluating our decisions. So, as you've worked with, I mean tons, of companies that span from s followed a large fortune, five hundreds and beyond, how have you been able to coach them into not just coming up with the initial decision but then evaluating their decisions as they go along? Well, I think he used a great word, Bart and that word is is coach, and I only work with people who want to be coached. So there are people who think that they have to have all of the answers, that it's their way or the highway, and I don't work with those people because none of us has all of the answers and I think that we have the opportunity to learn from from one another. In fact, you know, I'm preparing this week to lead three all day meetings that are essentially peer advisory boards that are made up of executives of non competing companies who come to other for the for...

...the express purpose of having their blind spots illuminated. And so I think, I think that's that it. You have to be willing to say, look, I don't have all the answers, I could be wrong, I could be missing something, and I think that that is another hall mark of leaders is. It's a it's a very hard thing to be a leader because, on the one hand, you have to be convicted around what you stand for and believe in that, and on the other hand you have to be open to the fact that you could be wrong. And when I do workshops I've got an image that I put up on the screen and it's an illustration of two people standing on other side, either side of a figure that's laying down in front of them, and one one person says this is a sixth and the other person on the other shot says it's a nine. And guess what, they're both right exactly, and so and so. It all depends on your perspective. And so I think one of the things, back to your point about data and all of that, it's like, I think, one of the questions when I say here ten questions that should be answered before you make a big decision, and one of those is will. First, what are the facts? Is it a six or nine? Will guess what it's both. And another question that has to be answer is will who should be involved in helping me make this decision right, because some decisions have to be made by yourself. Other decisions have to be made or should be made in more collaborative fashion. One of the one of the benefits of getting everyone together in these these peer advisory groups for this is this is something a I'm a consultant, if you will, or a coach in this peer Advisory Forum for vestage International, and one of the advantages of this is, hey, it is lonely at the topics. You don't have to make this decision alone. I'm not saying that you necessarily have to make it in your in your organization and involve people, but you've got fifteen other people sitting around the table that you can share this, this decision with before you actually make it, so that maybe people will see something that you that you haven't seen. And so I think there's all. I think there's also this this idea that that very few decisions are irreversible. I mean some are, but I mean there's a there's a quote from from Franklin Roosevelt that says, you know, there are many ways to go forward. There's only one way of standing still. And so if this idea to say look, let's let's just do something and let's make the best decision that we can in the moment let's make let's make sure that what the decision that we're making were, we are true to our our core values. And then, if we get it wrong, okay, what did we learn from that? How do we adjust? What's our next move? But don't just sit there, because people are counting on you to say this is what we need to do, this is where we're going. Come on, let's get it done. Well, I appreciate you talking about bringing others in and evaluating who needs to help you make the decision, because one of your greatest and what I've been able to glean from from your work is one of Your Greatest Points of coaching and points of consulting is accountability. And I think for leaders, that is a huge challenge for us as finding people who will hold as accountable, and not in a negative way, but in a constructive way. How do we, as leaders, as symbole our team of accountability partners, if you will, both internally, as that our organizations, and externally, of those people who can help us look at things from another light? Well, it's a hit's a rich topic. I wrote an...

...entire book about accountability yes and it continues to take me all around the world. I was. I was in the UK last month for two weeks speaking on the topic of accountability, and one of the things that that I have learned, even since I wrote the book, is that this notion of holding people accountable is, as you say, not in a negative way, because my view of that is actually your top performers actually love accountability. They love to be accountable. And one of the things that I have changed since I wrote that book is this idea of saying let's not hold each other accountable, let's be accountable, because head holding someone accountable sounds like you are imprisoning them. Right, you are right, you are, you are you're making them do something that they don't want to do. And so this idea is it's like, look, let's all agree that we need to get this done and let's be accountable to getting it done right and then, and then if something changes or we make a bad decision or whatever the case may be, then let's let's correct it and move on. And so I think that's that's a big that's a big part of it, and I think the other part of it is is really, from an accountability standpoint, asking lots of questions. That's why I'm so intrigued with the questions and why there are so many included in the book. How leaders decide, because I believe if if we have agreed to do something and then, for whatever reason, that thing that we've agreed to do does not get done, we need to ask some questions around will. What has changed? Maybe that's no longer a priority, or maybe we solved enough of it or we can pleaded enough of it that that's okay for where we are. Let's agree to that and then and then we can move on. And so I think that when things don't get done, when we are not accountable, then I think that that brings up a whole set of coaching questions, and that's what I believe accountability to be. By the way, is coaching, not scolding. We need to say, will, look, what what happened here? How did this not get completed? Because we agreed? Where the expectations not clear? Could I have helped you? You know what barriers were in your way? What has changed? All those, all those kinds of things, so that we can bring a spirit of helpfulness, you know, to it as opposed to well, I'm just going to use a stick to hit you, because it didn't get done and that's that's not really helpful. It's not it's not it's not good leading, it's not good coaching and it probably won't get the the situation of fixed. And so I think that that accountability brings an opportunity for us to to coach and support and break down barriers and make sure that we put people in positions to be successful and that we have equipped them to execute at a high level and so on and so forth. And so you know, the whole accountability thing is a is a perennial challenge for a lot of companies and I think if we could just agree to be open and candid about what the situation is, then we would be able to solve for the situation instead of doing the blame game thing or avoiding the conversation or whatever the case may be. So, you know, if you if you think about a high performing team that you have been on, most of the time people are pretty open about saying how things are going and where things are not going well, and the reason for that is because there's a lot of trust and respect and I think that if we can, you know, engender the kinds of teams and the kinds of...

...cultures where there is trust and respect, then we can have the conversations that we need to have in order to make better decisions and and move things along to to a satisfactory conclusion. So what we are focusing on and the month of August here at leader cast is the theme of challenge. And we're not just talking about the challenges necessarily that leader's face, but it's about how do we face and overcome those challenges. So I'm glad you answer that question about accountability, because I think that's a huge challenge for leaders is to find people that will hold them accountable. But, as you mentioned, it's not just saying you did wrong, it's, you know, as again with the challenge, it's not just acknowledging that it exists. You have to figure out how you're going to work around it. I mean, if you're running the hundred meter hurdles, you can't go yeah, there's a hurdle in front of me, you do have to jump over it. And one of the ways that I think that we as leaders fall short is oftentimes we we don't really think as accountability as something positive, and I'm wondering how, when we do our you know, yearly reviews. I kind of want to talk about two things with you want a yearly looking forward and then are yearly looking path backward. So when we're doing our yearly reviews, what are some ways that we as leaders can look at ourselves and evaluate our own decisionmaking, but also truly help those who are maybe, you know, below us, who also are in decisionmaking spots? How do we help them hold themselves accountable to be better decisionmakers? Well, I think I've got about five thoughts running through my head on one of them. I know it's a longest. Well, well, no, that's that's cool. You know, one of the one of the chapters is about black part I did a guy who was an honest sailor become a pirate and part of how this happened is because he imagined a better future for himself. And so when you when you think about performance rating, one of the things that I that I say in a very simple formula is that, first of all, accountability does not get better with age and so and so, if you see something, here's the formula. When you see it, say it and when you say it, solved it, and when you solve it, do it. So I think that, because because accountability is coaching, we should coach in the moment. We should we should coach so that when we see something good, we should tell the person, wow, you did something really great. Do you even know what you did? Were you then conscious of that, so that we can say we want you to replicate that. Conversely, if something is not going great, then you say the same thing. Hey, we saw it, we said it. How did this happen? What could we have done differently? If you had it to do differently, what would you do? What can we do next time to prevent this? What have we learned? Although that's all coaching, and so I think that you know this, this this idea of, you know, the annual performance review. Everything that I'm reading is that is that people are coaching in a much more frequent fashion and and and that the performance review is really turning into more of a career conversation to talk about how can we match the things that you enjoy and are good at with the things that we need done in our organization. So that, to me, is the new definition of management and how great managers lead to because typically, you know, the people are generally pretty good at the things that they like and they are generally not very good at the things that they hate. And so we as leaders need to take all of that into consideration and really think about what what is the career path that we that we see for someone here and just and when...

...we are able to have authentic conversations about what's working and what's not working and what people like and what they don't like, then we are going to be in a better position to place them in a role in the organization that serves the organization's purpose and also feeds the person. The the thing about this as you cannot insent passion, you can only insent behavior, and so what that means is leaders, we need to understand what people are passionate about, because we that comes from within and so we all we can do is to tap into that passion and then put them in a position where that passion can be utilized or to even say, you know what, I know that's your passion, but I don't see how that passion may be able to fit into our organization and to be able to have that conversation in a way that is truthful and respectful and provide some great coaching for the person to say, you know what, maybe maybe my future doesn't lie with this organization or in this department or whatever the case may be. But I think it all comes down to, you know, being able to have conversations that are that are genuine and that are caring, so that people can see there their boss or their mentor at really as someone who cares about their performance. So part of this is as that I wanted to talk about going forward. So we've talked about how we can hold ourselves accountable after decisions are made. Her, as you said, coaching in the moment, okay, this is good, this is great, but you know, this is bad. But when we start looking forward for our organizations, that's kind of where decisions are really most important, because we do have to decide and fully commit to a direction. And one of the things that you help with is strategic planning. You know, you are there to help guide people through their strategic planning processes. As a leader, what do you think our role in the entire strategic planning process is, because I feel like leaders get stuck saying that we have to make all the decisions, but at the same time, how do we balance letting our people do the job that they're hired to do and then us being a good leader. So where do we find that fine line? Lock? Yeah, that's on of the fine line of walking between doing and being. I don't want a passive being standoff as throughout the process, and the strategic planning process is that I lead, it's very important to get focused on what is the common goal? What are what are the three or four priorities that we need to execute in order to achieve this goal, and those discussions need to be held in the room so that everyone can understand. So if you if you've got a leadership team of six, seven, eight, eight people on the team, there might be, you know, one thousand, five, sixteen, seventeen different priorities that each person has as a pet project that they would like to see executed or completed, and and it's the job of the facilitator or the leader to say, look, I know we've got the sixteen things that you all said are important. I'm going to give you a vote and you get to pick three. Let's get them all up on the table and let's see how we can get these sixteen down to three and use that process and have them involved so that they understand the the bigger goal, the tradeoffs and why everyone is going to be committed to these, you know, top three or four priorities. I think that also then, once you get into the execution of that, it's very important to keep people posted on progress. I say that tracking does the heavy lifting of accountability. So paint the picture of where...

...we're going and then use tracking as a scoreboard to show how we are doing against the three or four big priorities that everyone agreed on. And then the last thing in terms of you know, how do you hit the how do you hit the balance? You know, I come back again to William Mc Knight, who is the longtime CEO of the three in company, and one of his quotes is if you put fences around people, you're going to get sheep. So you've got to trust them to say look, if these are the values this, these are the rules of engagement of how we are going to behave and conduct our business. If you know that this is the goal and if you have this responsibility, you should have the authority to be able to make the decisions that you need to make in your in your part of the world, whether you're running a business unit or a department or a team and if you were doing those things right, you're doing you're doing the right things the right way for the right reasons, then we as leaders need to back off and let people execute and you know what mistakes are going to be made. And so I think part of the other thing is to decide on the front and what's my tolerance for risk, what's my tolerance for failure, whatever that is, so that people can say, okay, if it's a budget number, if it's a relationship kind of issue, I know where the I know where the undres are, and that means that I will come to my boss or my mentor or whoever and get them involved in this decision before I make it. But otherwise I've been given permission, I've been entrusted to run my business or to execute this plan, because there's the trust, there's the respect and there's an agreed upon plan that we're in the process of executing. So I think on the front end it needs to be very collaborative, because people will tend to support a decision that they've had a hand in in helping make and then, once the decision is made, then to be able to say, okay, these are the parameters under which you have authority to proceed and you know, if you've got a question, if you're not sure, if you're concerned, if there's some kind of a conflict between you know, whatever it might might be, then come to us and we'll talk about it and a respect, in a respectful way. And I think that the the the the leaders who are able to do this are able to get the most out of their people because their people want to perform at a high level. I mean, that's my belief as well. I think people want to win. People want to win, people want to do well, people don't want to let their colleagues down, people want to please their bosses. But we need to we need to show them, you know, what what a win looks like and we need to give them the tools so that they can execute. So it seems like if I could summarize all of your points into maybe one or two, it's that, as a leader, your job is to really make sure that your followers and you understand what the goals are for your organization. And that doesn't necessarily mean that our goals are, you know, ten million in sales. It's about knowing what you want your organization to do and if you have alignment on that, decisionmaking seems to be quite easy. Well, I'd say yes, and you've done a great job, barts. No, no, I you did a yes, you've done a great job summarizing it. And I would add this. People need something more than a financial target to cheer for. They need to understand why. Why are we doing this? Who is this helping? If our company didn't exist, what would the world be missing? Right I am working with the company right now and the leaders say, look, we know very clearly that the objective is to double the size of our company from a hundred million to two hundred million over the next five years. We know that, but that's not very...

...exciting to us. It's not very exciting. It's like, what are we trying to do, what are we trying to stand for? What are we going to deliver that that's different, that's going to make us a better choice for people out there who would buy our products or services. And so I think that people need to be inspired by something more than a number. And and I think that all of those things that you said are exactly right and we need to be able to say this is why what we're doing matters. So, all that said, I appreciated all this wisdom because I feel like we sometimes get discouraged because, for example, I'm not the CEO of leader cast, but that doesn't mean I'm not making decisions every single day and it's still very important for me to not only understand the overall goals and vision of leader cast, but in terms of what I do and and my day to day functions, knowing what my goals and and vision and mission are. But even outside in our own lives, it's having that clarity about what you want to do and I'm glad that you talked about that because I think that's something that we lose track of. And decisionmaking. We always talk about how to make great decisions and you detailed them very well in your book, but I think, as you mentioned, all of these decision makers and one way, shape or form, showed the value of knowing where you want to go. Some of them did it well, some of them to not write and so I'm glad that you're talking about that because I think it's part of the decisionmaking discussion that isn't always there. I have two more questions, though, before we get out of here and they're both fairly straightforward. But the first one is which story of this book was your favorite. Well, you know, you fall in love with all of them, I guess because it's timely. My wife and I are meeting our daughter and son in law and a couple of weeks at Mount Rushmore and that has always in on my list, or at least for the longest time. And what I didn't realize was just that was a thirty year project that almost didn't get built. I doubt that it could be built today. It's the world's largest sculpture. Each of the faces is the size of the Great Sphinx and there's just so much that that went into it. There was a there was a dreamer, there was a business guy, there was an artist, and they all came together to to create one of the the great icons of America. And getting into that story was, you know, one quite life and death like, like custer, are Hitler or the titanic or you know some of the others, Julius Caesar as as you mentioned. But I just love how that all came together and the point is that there are lessons there for for us, because there are elements of our operation. When you think about the three men, and they were men back back then, who came up with the plan. You know they're three, there three. There three facets of any organization's business. Their sales, there's operations and there's and there's accounting, and you need all three of those in the question is, where are we weakest in one of those areas in our in our organization? So that's a that's a favorite me. Well, I have to one of them is the Black Bart story, because the guy named Bart. You know, I've always identified well with black part anytime we had a pirate steam or anything, I was always black Bart, the pirate. They never called him met to his face, but you know, I love that story. But also I loved I loved the Winston Churchill story because I appreciated the fact that you brought out Winston Churchill is an incredible order and really helped motivate and keep the British people, you know, alive during the time he was in command during the world wars. But having talking about his first speech, which was bad, is something that I think we lose sight of in the historical framework. But my last question for you is it's...

...a simple question but I don't think that it's easily answered. But you've gone through an historical account of many, many leaders who made decisions both good and bad. But and researching all of these leaders and and the work that you do today with with modern day leaders, what to you makes a leader worth following? People believe them. HMM, they believe them. They believe in the person, they believe in what they stand for. They believe in the vision that the leader his cast. They believe that the leader will help them, will bring them along on the journey, that the leader has their call leagues best interests at heart. I mean all of those things. There is just a profound belief that the leader believes in him or herself, believes in those who are with them, believes in their own responsibility, believes that what they are aiming for can in fact get done. There is just a profound aura of belief. Well, thank you so much for all this wisdom and, you know, real world advice that you shared here on the leader cast podcast. It was very fun talking with you, but you obviously do this on a daily basis. You help people near and far be better leaders. Where can we find more of your great wisdom and insights. Well, I'm hesitating because my wife would say really great wisdom. So there's there's a there's a ton of free material on my website, including there are five chapters, we call them the lost chapters that didn't make it in to the book. That can be another little sampler that that your listeners can download for free on the website, which is www dot bustin be is in boy USTI incom all kinds of free stuff, free blogs, free exercises, five chapters that didn't make it into this book. That are that are therefore for the downloading and in the sharing. So thanks for the opportunity for the for the call out part, and thanks for the opportunity to be on this podcast today with you while Greg again, thank you so much for being here. And, as I mentioned at the top, you can get Greg's book how leaders decide, a timeless guide to making tough choices, anywhere. I really Amazon as a great place, but you can go to his website as well and find a link to buy the book. Greig, thanks again for being on this episode of the leader cast podcast. Thank you, Bart. As Greg said, you can find his book and his other works at bustoncom that's the USTI andcom and, as I said, how leaders decide can be found on Amazon and Barts and noble and other fine booksellers. Don't forget to subscribe to the leader cast podcast. Give us a rating as well, if you don't mind, and follow us on Facebook, twitter, instagram and Linkedin as just leader cast. You can interact with our podcast using the HASHTAG leader cast podcast. Give us suggestions or feedback on what you felt about this episode and all episodes, which can be found on Itunes, stitcher and any other of your favorite pod catchers. So thanks again for listening and go be a leader worth following. Thanks for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.

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