The Leadercast Podcast
The Leadercast Podcast

Episode · 3 years ago

37. Jeff Hilimire on Finding Your Entrepreneurial Spirit


Successful entrepreneurs just have to make it work. 


It’s the belief that there’s no alternative that makes leaders who think like entrepreneurs commit to making a team, organization, or company successful.


On this episode, we hear from Jeff Hilimire, CEO of Dragon Army:


What we talked about:

  • The 5 days of The 5-Day Turnaround
  • Why you should stand during meetings
  • What it means to lead like an entrepreneur
  • Why some startups fail and how long startups really take
  • Empathy is the most important leadership quality


Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

Check out the full podcast with Jeff Hilimire by clicking here and you can find every episode of The Leadercast Podcast at this link.

This is the leader cast podcast, helping you be a leader worth following. Leader cast is committed to filling the world with leaders worth following through live than experiences and on demand education. Leader cast exists to guide you on your leadership journey. Learn more about what leader cast can do for you at leader Castcom. Welcome to this episode of the leader cast podcast. I'm part and, you know, for some reason the term entrepreneurial spirit seems to be something that's not very clearly defined, you know, as a label given to a kid who often finds way to make money, or a person in your office who really love to start a new project. But really, what is the spirit that runs through entrepreneurs and, maybe more importantly, is that unique to those people or can anyone find that spirit within themselves? Well, on this episode of the leader Cast Podcast I have with me Jeff Kellemyer, a serial entrepreneur, as he'll tell you, a blogger, and he's the author of the five day turnaround. Be The leader you always want it to be. Now we talk about the principles of Entrepreneurship and Jeff Rifles flu the five steps and his five day turnaround. Really what he talks about in this book is how a business can adopt a startup mindset when they're trying to enact great changes from top to bottom. Now he wrote this book for normal business leaders, but he, as I said, is a serial entrepreneur, having started a launched several companies in his career, but he currently serves as CEO of Dragon Army, which, of course, is a company that he started, and as the founder, of course, of the nonprofit ripples for hope. You can buy the five day turn around at farms, the noble and other fine booksellers, and I know Jeff would greatly appreciate that. But without further fuss, let me bring on Jeff Hellamire to the leader cast podcast. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Well, like I said, you kind of been a serial entrepreneur, if you will. When did you first discover that you have this entrepreneurial spirit inside of you? Yeah, I think it was they're growing up and I didn't realize that my dad ran a vending company, still does, and so I would run routes with him in the summers and I knew he ran eight thinkness, but I I didn't actually never thought about being an entrepreneur until the day I decided to start my first company, which was in November of one thousand nine hundred and ninety eight, when I was in my final year of college and my roommate and I had been building websites in any free spare moment we had. I was a programmer, he was a graphic designer and we're...

...just in the dorm room building site and one day I was just like, hey, why don't we aren't start a company? And and I think, honestly, I think maybe I just did that so that we could build a company website. I mean it was just like all we wanted to do. But looking back, I think I think that idea of yeah, of course you can start a company was inside of me somewhere because I saw growing up right. Well, that's interesting that you are kind of a second generation entrepreneur. So what are things that you learned in your early days or learned from, you know, your dad, that helped you as you were young entrepreneur, as you were starting out and your career? One of those earlier things that you learned? Yeah, the very first thing I learned was it's actually the first lesson in the book that I wrote called the five day turn around. It's the it's what I call the do or died mindset. So where we first started our company, it was company called Spun Logic. Within that First Year I was coaching tennis at country clubs while I was trying to get the business going. One of our co founders was waiting tables at night while he was building websites during the day. And so we had an event happened which forced us to be all in. We took on a huge contract with a New Zealand company and we quit our jobs and got office space. We had been in my mom's basement for about a year. We got out of there into an office space. We hired a person's we had like four of us, and quit our jobs and then that contract fell through. The New Zealand company went bankrupt, and so what happened was we were forced to be all in and what I realized looking you know, at the time it was the worst possible thing that ever could have happened to us, but looking back, it forced us to be all in on our business and so from that point forward we put every ounce of our being, every bit of passion, every everything into making this work and it took a long time, but it ultimately worked. And as I as I talked to friends that are that are leaders of teams and big organizations or even nonprofit leaders, I find that that's, to me, the biggest thing that's missing. That successful entrepreneurs they just have to make it work. They believe that it will work and they're going to do everything they can to make it work, and I think too often people who are not entrepreneurs but they are leaders, they don't have that same mindset. So it's sort of like, well, I can always get a job, but you know this other company keeps calling at can go there. There's always a backup or a plan be and if you have that, you're never going to put everything into making this company, this team, as dynamic as and as amazing as it can possibly be. So that's an interesting lead into my next question really is. So you wrote this book the five they turn around. First up. What are those five days? I mean, what does that look like? Yeah, so the book. It's the book is written for leaders who are not entrepreneurs effectively to lead like an entrepreneur. And when I started to write a book, this is this was three years in the making. I actually started to do research to because I was going to write it what I would call like a normal business book, but I could not find case studies, I couldn't find anything to use in a classic...

Business Book and I've always been a fan of Patrick Lindsay, one who writes these amazing able, sort of parable style business books. Worth's the story and so you're reading along with it's almost like a fiction business book, and so I gave that a try and ultimately loved writing that format. So point is, the five day turnaround is is an Entpreneur who leads an agency, which is which is what I've done for my twenty years as an entrepreneur. He leads a an advertising agency and he works with his client, who's the chief marketing officer of a giant corporation. He works with him to help him unlock his ability to lead his marketing team like an entrepreneur. And there's essentially five core principles that when I started I probably had fifteen to twenty things that I saw that were in the entrepreneurial spirit, and then I had either learned myself or seen another entrepreneurs and I ultimately was able to get it down to five sort of core areas that I thought if a leader can embrace these, they could lead their team, their organization like an entrepreneur. So what the book does is it takes place over about thirty days, but each Monday the to lead characters meet and they go over a principle and then for the rest of that week that CMO is putting that principle into place. So that's that's what the five days are. They actually take place over a month. The first is the do Ordie mindset, which is that idea of being all in on leading your team. The second is a structure that I use to ground and pull my companies together, which is called TV TV, purpose, vision, tenants and values. So that's sort of the construct and how do you build a cohesive team? The third is focused on building a trusting, collaborative team, so like, who are the players? Are they in the right position? Do we have the right trust within the team so that we can actually accomplish thing? The fourth component of this is called move at the speed of startup. So this is the idea of breaking down things that are in your way, looking at tips like how to have lets meeting, how to move more quickly within an organization. And then the fifth is welcoming failure and it's the idea of, you know, celebrating failure and being comfortable with it, which is really tough to do in a large corporation, but I think it can be done. So those are the five core areas that I feel like if if a leader can sort of embrace them and embody them and work on them over time, they'll accomplish so much more than they ever had before. Well, that's interesting that you mentioned move at the speed of start up, right, because I think that as we look at a corporation that has been around for decades, maybe even just a couple years, a lot of things are ingrained. There's a culture that's already there, there are processes and procedures that are already in place and there are just norms and ways of doing things that exists and the workplace. So if you are trying to basically get rid...

...of all of that and move quickly toward a new direction, what's the biggest key to making sure people understand that, hey, we've got a turn it into overdrive now. How do you prepare people for that? Shiit? That's that's a really great question. What I've seen so far, so the book's been about out about three months and a lot of leaders, especially in the Atlanta area that I know, have read the book and what they've gravitated toward is the PV TV contract. And so I've actually taken several teams within large companies here in Atlanta through that process and what I've seen is in the room. So I so did a threehour workshop on pvtv with a digital leadership team at one of the larger nonprofits in Atlanta and the energy in the room and a group of people started to make the shift from we are a division in a large company to we are a team and we are going to be grounded together and try to do amazing things together. As they went through the process of identifying what their purpose is, why that team exist in the world, not even just in their company, but their vision for what they want their team to become over time. What are the core tenants that, if they spoke this on, they will achieve their vision? And then what are the values that that team is going to exhibit? All this has to connect with the larger organizations values, for instance, but they can embody in themselves, and that's what I saw happening in that room and what I've seen as that teams continue to go forward, is they feel like they're part of something special. They feel like they're part of something unique and not just one of fifteen different divisions within the company, and I really think that's the way to start pushing through, because when you feel like you're trying to accomplish something amazing and you feel like you're part of a team, you will start to look at barriers and roadblocks very differently. You'll start to say, no, we can do that differently, or why do we have to want? Why is this? You start questioning things because you have a bigger purpose. So that, to me, is the thing that helps the most, is if you can make that mind shift to we're our own team and we're going to accomplish amazing things together, instead of we're just part of this big system. That, just that supplementality shift, can help you move mountains. Well. It's worth noting that you are, you know, CEO of Your Own Company, Dragon Army, and you deal with you know this on a daily basis of leading a team. It's not just necessarily an entrepreneurial adventure anymore. You've been at this for a few years. So, as you look at your team and your role and your daily life, what are some of those principles from your book that you use, you know, every day, or maybe every week or Monday, that you mentioned in your that you talked about in your book? What are those precipal that you use on a regular basis now is you're the leader of your own company? Yeah, it's very interesting. I'm forty three. I've started five different companies. The first two were grown and sold dragon armies. The third and started that six years ago, and I've started... nonprofits over the last couple of years. And I say all that to say, as much as I obviously have a very entrepreneurial bent and as much as I sort of talk about that and blog about pad and write books about that, my companies can also fall prey to the things that I talked about in the book. And so, as an example, one thing we're struggling with the Dragon Army as we grow it is too many meetings. There's she's always too many meetings. The solved for meeting other than being comfortable questioning sort of the status quo. This is how it's always been done and of course we have to have this meeting and that meaning the fault for that really is building trust and continuing to build trust with your team and within your company, because if there's trust, everybody doesn't have to be in that meeting. You're not wondering, well, what is someone going to say about me if I'm not there, or is someone to someone going to relay to me the things I need to know, or you know, is they're going to be political in fighting? Is someone going to land grab something that really should be something my is doing? When you have trust, those things aren't present and so therefore you don't have to be in every meeting. So I say all that we work hard on the trust building within my leadership to being one of the things I talked about in the book is delegation and the importance of that. And so how do I get my leadership team to continue to give the people under them an opportunity to grow and lead while also bring up some of their times that they can focus on the bigger issues than the things that they really should be doing? So it's a constant battle as dragging army continues to grow. You know, we we run into these same problems, and so I literally have to look back as all right, what are some of these things I've learned over times that I had literally had to put into my my company's practice? Yeah, real quick, I this is something that's been a trend among a lot of leadership experts recently. Is this idea that we're having too many meetings, were meeting ourselves to death, and your opinion, what is an example or what makes a an appropriate meeting, one that does need to be have and what's, you know, the type of meeting that is superfluous. Were why are we here? You know this is wasting my time. Yeah, well, I would say, you know, what makes a good meeting is that there's a a ending of this sound so simple, but there's a reason for the meeting to happen. Often Times it's like, well, yeah, of course, when this part of the project or this part of our when our company hits this thing, then we have a meeting to discuss. But often times you're like, well, why are we really having this? And it may be that it's like well, because we always do. I would also say, like, who's in the meeting? If everybody in the meeting has a reason to be there. So, number one, should we be having this meeting? Number two, or in conjunction with number one, you know what are we trying to get out of the meeting? Like so we know, so we don't sit there and talk for an hour without getting to the crux of the issue that we're trying to solve. And number three, who's even in the meeting? So I would say meetings for meeting sake or meetings because six months ago you thought there should be a weekly or quarterly meeting and you just kept doing it. Those are those are reasons not... have meetings. Getting people in the same page, because that is going to move the ball forward much faster, is a great reason to have a meeting. I find that even though people can work remote and the accountable to getting their work done, I do find people being together sometimes is important. So, like we always have a quarterly off site with the leadership team at Dragon Army. Part of that just so that we can spend a day together and fill relationships and build that trust. Right. So there's reasons to have meeting. One of the tips that I put in the book that my certainly didn't invent, is doing things like instead of staying. The meeting is either thirty minutes or an hour or two hours. Maybe change it to eighteen minutes and forty eight minutes and and lower amounts and say there's no such thing as a thirty minute anymore. There's a eighteen minute meeting and if you need something more than that, there's a forty eight meeting and there's no such thing as a fifty we fall into these things while we got to fill and one of the beliefs I have is that meetings will expand to fill the time allotted for them. There's a principle of work as well, like work will explo expand to fill the time alloted for it. So if I say you have until next Friday get something done, it's going to take you at least until next Friday. It worked just always does that. Meetings to the same thing. If I give you sixty minutes, eating never going to end in twenty two minutes. It's going to take sixty minutes. So playing with that, playing with the idea of, you know, this meeting no chairs, we're all standing up, you'll be surprised how much faster meetings go if there's no chairs and how much more productive you'll be if people can't sit down over let. That's an interesting I definitely understand the no chair meeting. It's similar to a fan of Aaron Sorkin and have gone back and started watching the West Wing and Netflix in the walk and talk type of mentality where it's you know, you know that type of mentality is what kind of lives within the entrepreial spirit and that it's just finding a different way to do things. So, as you you mentioned, you've started and sold a couple of companies. You Know Have Dragon Army and nonprofit. But as you look at how do you help other people run their businesses better? What are some trends that you've seen outside of, obviously the too many meetings, but what are some trends that you've seen in people who are trying to start up a new company but it hasn't been successful for them? What are the reasons that they're not as successful as I need to be or why are they failing? Yep, well, my belief about starting company and Entrepreneurship is that I don't really care about the idea. Everybody has a million dollar, million dollar idea. Everybody has, you know, doesn't really matter because almost definitely, if you, if you do this right, the thing you end up building is going to be very different than the original idea you had. It's more about are you going to work hard? Are you going to put everything into this, or you're going to have that doward I mind set number one. Number two, are you going to give yourself enough time to make this work? And number three, are you going to be flexible? Are you going to realize maybe I need to try something different and need to pivot, I need to try a new stab at this, I need to listen to customers. But if you, if you're...

...the right person and you're going to work hard and dedicate your time to this, and you give that person enough time, and I would say at a minimum eighteen months, then they have a shot. Doesn't matter how good the idea is. If you're going to do it on the side, you might as well forget about it. And if you're going to give yourselves yourself three or six months, you're better off just putting your money in a poor m k. too many people fail because they've never gave themselves enough time. They don't realize how long it takes to figure out what your business is going to be and figure out how to sell and get customers and all that stuff takes time and it's way harder than anybody ever understand. Every one of my companies who's taken years to create a successful business. So but to me, is the most important beyond that, focusing your time so when you're a l entrepreneur, nobody's telling you what to do every day, so you can fill that time with a lot of stuff that you just should not be doing. A time on the easy stuff, the stuff that's in your face. You know that emails that come in. Well, I'll just fund the email instead of doing this big thing, and then two hours later you didn't get the thing you needed done. Son It's different because no one of telling you what to do. So focusing time and getting very organized about that, a very protective of your time, is the thing that I see that that holds too many entrepreneurs back. That's interesting because I think that does fit into the, you know, the all in mindset of if you're going to do this, you need to devote your time and energy to it. But, as your book kind of talks about, it is not always about a startup. How what are those things that we need to do as we approach a turnaround or a big shift at our company. What are some ways that we can prepare ourselves before we start doing this, before prepare our leadership teams, prepare, you know, the organization, organization as a whole, before we really start day one of that turnaround. Yeah, you know, identifying that there's a problem is pretty important and you know often times they'll be if a company or team is trying to go through a big change, having the conversation to make sure everybody understands this is this is what's not working and this is what we need to fix. Often Times people don't even see that problem. So I guess that Old Cliche of admitting you you have a problem, it's that one. You know, ideally you have unity within the team so that when controversial decisions are made, that everybody was heard, that everybody had a chance to speak up if they wanted to, but then once the decision is made, everybody back to that decision a hundred percent. If you're trying to change the way you work or do some you know, big initiative, or acquirer a company, whatever the shift is, if people aren't all rowing in the same direction. Then it's then it's doomed from the start and that takes time to build a company that will do that. I've had good and bad experiences with that along my my journey where we went after a big thing and everybody got behind it, even though everybody didn't a hundred percent agree. They felt like they...

...were listening to and and they said, okay, got it, will making that decision. was going for and then I've had the opposite where there were defectors and people who weren't willing to speak up. But then we're talking to team members once the decision was made about how terrible the idea was. That can poison everybody to get the job done. So you really need people on board. You need to give them a chance to talk it out, to make sure they are hurt and really heard, and then make the tough decision and get everybody on board. I'd say that's the biggest thing that leaders can take away from that. So, as you obviously shift away from the immediate rush of the turn around, let's say you've got through those five days, you've got through the month or so of putting in the work and practicing those preciples to kind of turn your company around obviously is not one month thing. So how does that that next month, the next year to sustain that turnaround? What are the what are the key components of saying the courts key to the moment him going at how does the leader make sure that the direction continues to go positively? So I would say first of all, the book is condensed into five days over a thirty day period. That is not how I would recommend this. Right for regular that was a dramatization that Aaron sorkin would have been proud of, but not necessarily how I would recommend it. So interesting you say that I have recently created a new nonprofit. Actually around the same time I watched the book for this nonprofit is called ripples of hope and essentially what it is is a Leadership Program for nonprofit leaders. And so this first it's a two year program and what I do is take them through components of this book. Essentially there's actually for big six month phases of the ripples of hope program what it is said over six months, and so, for instance, the PBTV part of the program is a sixmonth process and then beyond that it's the execution of rolling it out and continuing to reinforce it. That is so important. So I would say it's probably you could go through this five day turnaround and make real major change. You make major change pretty quickly because there's a lot of little hanging through, but if you really want to go through it and change the dynamic of your team and or your company, it's probably a year, eighteen months. It's a long term thing. And then it's the discipline of bringing most things to lie. So it's one thing to identify your purpose and your vision your values. It's another thing to constantly reinforce those, to find ways to make them part of the just everyday life of the business, to get your key members to really embrace them. So there's a lot of hard work. So I would say, you know, there's a lesson that takes three to six months to really get down and then there's a, you know, without being dramatic, and lifetime commitment then to continue that and and finding new ways to bring that to light. So it's an ongoing phase, phase out approach that I think you have to be disciplined...

...and smart about, aggressive when it matters, but but not push too much too soon. Can you can't it can be too much for a team to to do all at once. Well, I love that you've created a nonprofit for leaders of nonprofits. That's a very unique organization that you have there and that's interesting just because you've been involved with nonprofits for a while. You've been on advisory boards that you mentioned, you had your own nonprofit. So why do you get involved with that sector of business? So it's a great question. I went through a program in two thousand and two thousand and thirteen called leadership Atlanta, and essentially that's a program for about eighty liters every year in the city of Atlanta, all walks of life, very diverse group from from every aspect and there's a race awareness weekends that happens that the towards the beginning of that program. And what happened to me during that weekend is that my eyes opened for the first time to the just massive amount of privilege that I have had and continue to have in my life. I have never been prejudiced against for the color of my skin or my gender or my religion, you name it, and I check every box of privilege. And while I looked back at my life and the things that I accomplished a gosh. I worked hard and that was really tough. At the same time, I was participating in a system that gave me an advantage. So, anyways, over years after that, that was again I graduated from that. In two thousand and thirteen, I just a whole life change and I decided that everything I had to do, everything I focused on, will now try to make the world a better place, because I owe that, because I continue to participate in a world that gives me the benefit of the doubt and gives me the advantages that I don't deserve, that I didn't do anything to get. And so, since two thousand and thirteen, you know, I did start dragging army. Dragging army is a purpose driven company. Our purposes to inspire happiness through positive relationships and pathful work and doing good. So we do a lot in the community. We really try to bring positivity to our team members, to our client relationships, with the simple belief that if we can make them a little bit happier, if we can inspire happiness and people around us and the community around us, the world is a better place and people are more likely to be kind to somebody else. So that's my for profit. I started a nonprofit called forty eight and forty eight because I wanted to try to find a way to make a big impact by giving digital marketers, creatives, developers, project managers, giving them a chance to use their superpowers, which are building website or creating new logos and brands, giving them a chance to use their superpowers to do good in the world. And so forty eight and forty eight puts on Hackathon, bringing together from a hundred to five hundred people over a weekend to build forty eight nonprofit websites and forty eight hours. That organization is a chair of the board of that. There's it's five years old. We've done I think, eighteen events now and including London, so it's the organization is really growing. Delta Airlines has been an amazing partner with us from... one, so they shout out to them for that. And then recently I started ripples of hope, which also is again it's a leadership program trying to help nonprofits grow. It's also getting leaders in the community who have a lot of experience and opportunity to use their superpowers, their leadership skills, to mentor and Coach nonprofit leaders who don't always get that opportunity, and then the book as well. The book is meant to inspire people, to give them a chance to really feel like they're making it different with their team, with their company. So everything that I do try to revolve around my personal purpose, which is to have an outsized positive impact on the world. So since thirteen, that sort of directed my life and everything that I sort of put time and energy into needs to drive toward that purpose of having an outsized positive impact on the world. I wish I had had that revelation sooner, but now I'm just trying to get out for it. As you obviously have a lot of experience working in the nonprofit and entrepreneurial said it, which are fairly closely linked. What it would you say is the most important behavior an entrepreneur? Well, I think I would have to say empathy, and here's why. First of all, my hope would be that I feel like empathy is like my children. I have five children. My Hope, beyond anything else, for them is that they grow up being empathetic humans, that they understand their privilege, that they are able to put themselves in other people's shoes, that they see how they can help people who are struggling and so gosh, the world would be amazing if you had leaders who shared that, and we're truly trying to use their business as a force for good. That said, there's very practical reasons why empathy is an important characteristic of a successful leader. If you have empathy, you can empathize with your team members and understand what they're going through and create a team that is trusting and beliefs in each other. If you have empathy, you're going to have an eye towards your customer from oftentimes, entrepreneurs can be blind to what the customer really needs instead of just what their initial idea is. So that ability to put yourself in your customer shoes is important. A leader who is empathetic and give their time back to the community will see their company grow through new relationships, through putting good out into the world. So I think empathy is a leadership characteristic that is almost never talked about, but I could make a strong case that it is the most important attribute for a successful leader. That's an interesting behavior and attribute of an entrepreneur because I think so many people feel like it's almost you need to be cut throat and super ambitious and you mentioned empathy as almost the exact opposite. So that's a very wonderful take there. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you so dragon army is it is a digital agency and so in the agency world of Atlanta, from two thousand and sixteen to two thousand and eighteen, we were the fastest growing agency in the city and to the last couple years have been so. And so one of my big hopes is that other agency leaders or small business leaders can look and say, wow, they're...

...killing it. And wait, everything I see them putting out into the community and everything they see, you know, needs to CEO putting out on my book. It's all geared toward doing good. And Look at how they participate with nonprofits in the volunteer hours they do. And to give people this idea that you can do both, that you don't have to be, to your point, cutthroat and just like focused and just pound on your people and and don't give any any of your profit to any non profits because you're focused on justice business and and then later in life, when you've made your millions, then you can get back. I actually believe those two things can and should happen at the same time. And it's one of the reasons why, as you know, some of my friends have said, how come you're not just you know, if your purpose is to have an outsize positive impact on the world, why aren't you just running a nonprofit or two? Why are you even have a for profit business? And it's because I believe. I believe that the the sort of last stand for really making change in the world and really to have the biggest impact is going to come from for profit companies. For profit companies, if they put their mind behind something and they really focus on making change, they have a different voice and sometimes, unfortunately, a more powerful voice than government officials or politicians or nonprofit leaders. You know, if Amazon and apple and Google all decided that climate change was the most important thing in the world and they need to affect it, you better believe yeah, change whats are happening much faster right so that, to me, is one of the reasons I it's very important to me to run a for profit because I have a different voice and I have an ability with that change in a different way and I want to inspire other leaders to do so. Jeff, I love that that's a really awesome viewplay and admission in life. So that's fantastic. My last question for you before we close out. It's what makes a leader worse following? I feel like you may have answered it there, but I just want to send directly. You know, what does a leader worth molment with life? Yeah, obviously I'm sort of biased to certain characteristics on this one and once I look at the leaders who I have followed, you know, as a young man I used to be really inspired by seed jobs, right. That's and just like you know, I read lat that books on see jobs. But here's the thing about jobs, and he may have gone. What's really interesting is there's a fantastic netflix documentary at Bill Gates Right now and I think the transformation Bill went through Bill Gates for the PA thirty, forty years whatever. At the beginning just was ruthless and known to be ruthless, just demanding people worth her tales of not really doing anything in the community, and now he very well might be the person doing the most good at on the entire planet. He has taken all of his energy, all of his stem is, his brain, his money, everything and put it toward eradicating Poleo from the world that's focusing on huge, huge problems. Anyways, I feel at today. I used to think Steve Jobs all many brophy's great companies and I sort of was fine with the idea that he also destroyed people along the way and push them to where they ended up getting...

...divorced and didn't see their kids and but they accomplish these great things. I now look to leaders like John Mackie of whole foods or Ben and Jerry at Ben and Jerry's, who have built these companies that are endearing, that people love, that people love working act and that stand for things. Ben and Jerry's as a company is so amazing. If you sign up for their emails, you will get an email tomorrow. Maybe that's, you know, for new types of cookie dough ice cream that they're exploring and what do you think? But then on Monday you might get an email that is entirely focused on criminal justice reform and how you can contact your local congressman to affect change. And the fact that a premium ice cream company is doing those things just says the world to me. So I think leaders that inspire people and leaders that are worth following are ones that have heart are ones that understand that their company is a part of somebody's life, it's not their entire life, that being kind and human and thoughtful is our attributes worth having, and certainly you want a leader that can grow a company. You can't have one or the other, those two things. You certainly can't just have a kind person who's not willing to make tough decisions and their companies ever grow. You want to be part of something that's moving, but I just think there's so much more to be done in terms of empathy and kind us with leaders, and some of the most successful ones they have that. So those are the leaders that I would love to follow. Well, thank you very much for that with them insight. That's fits well with the rest of the podcast that we've discussed so far and and thank you for just sharing all of your insights into what it looks like to be a serial start up leader. My last question before I get you out of here, this is again Jeff Hll Myer, author of the Five Day Turnaround and great entrepreneur who has helped a lot of people along the way. But, Jeff, before you get out of here, where can we find all of your great content and insights and lessons as you share throughout your life. Yeah, I appreciated. The best place is my blog. So I bloged quite frequently. It's Jeff Hillmer, Jeff Hili Am. I arecom I've been blogging for over ten years. A lot of the principles in the book came through iterations of blog posts and things that I've been bragging about. It's there that I share, you know, and on Instagram I try to share a part of my daily life of running companies and you can find the book there. So I think that's probably the best place to start. Well, again, Jaff, thank you so much for joining us here on this episode of the leader cast podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. You have a great day. Thank you so much. Well again, you can buy the five day turnaround at Barnes and noble and other fine booksellers, and don't forget to subscribe to the leader cast podcast so you do not miss an episode of these great leadership stories. I'm really glad that you all continue to download and listen to this podcast and it would be a great favor to me and to the company of leader cast if you would write a review...

...of this podcast. It really helps us out from a searching standpoint and it allows other people to more quickly find these great leadership nuggets and interact with the leader cast podcast. So again, please subscribe and rate this podcast. You can do that and Itunes, stitcher, wherever you find your podcast. So thanks again for listening to Jeff Hillmer story here on the leader cast podcast, and now go be a leader worth following. Thanks for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.

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