The Leadercast Podcast
The Leadercast Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

53. A Conversation about Conversations w/ AmyK Hutchens


If you're talking to somebody and sense a constant power play, you don't feel safe.

But if you feel connected, you’ll be willing to have a tough conversation.

In this episode, we interview AmyK Hutchens, keynote speaker and author of Get It!, about the art of conversation.

What we talked about:

  • How conversation & connection underlie nearly everything we do at work and in life
  • Getting comfortable with getting uncomfortable
  • Unlocking the secret of the “ego hook”
  • The 4 things that must be present in every apology

Check out the full podcast with AmyK Hutchens by clicking here.

If you don’t use Apple Podcasts as your audio player, you can also find every episode at this link.

This is the leader cast podcast, helping you be a leader worth following. Hello everyone, and welcome to the leader cast podcast. My name is Angi Errands, and today we are going to talk all about conversations, quality conversations that are important for leaders to have and work on with their teams. It allows for companies and organizations to continue to the common goal build a culture based on empathy and respect, and also allow this to fulfill stakeholders and clients down the road. The question is, how do we have these quality conversations, why are they even important, and what is the ego hook that prevents us from moving forward? Our guests today, Amy K Hutchins, has many answers to these lingering questions and more. A former executive of a billion dollar Global Consumer Products Company and awarded the vistage UK International Speaker of the year, Amy Kas a dynamic and energetic catalyst for driving businesses forward faster. Amy Kate partners with executives, influencers and go getters on how to confidently and competently navigate their toughest conversations without saying something they regret, giving their power away or damaging their relationships. Author of the book get it Amy ca explains how to be better and all conversations and be a better leader. Leader cast now is an online resource for your leadership development. Get the solutions to your leadership challenges on any device at the moment you need it. To learn more, go to now doubt leader castcom. Hello, Amy K, how are you doing this morning? I am excellent. Thank you Andree for inviting me. It's our pleasure as we dive into this topic of leadership, and I had to tell you it is quite intimidating to really have a conversation with someone who speaks and writes all about the quality of conversations and the impact we are so thank you for taking that time. I would love for you to tell us a little bit how you realize for you personally, when having a quality conversation will make such an impact in looking at situations differently. So kind of tell us our story, like how did that happen for you? I think that the most transparent can in response I can give you is that I was so bad at communicated that there was like really no place to go but up, and so what was really funny for me was that it's not exactly one moment. It's almost like these theories of inflection points, like these crystallized micro moment where you witness somebody using their power and like a really good way, like honoring the worth of their own voice, or you see a leader use their voice to connect with their followers or another individual, and it was just to me like this fascinating, dynamic firm like my head came up above water, I started to become were observant and it was just fascinating to watch these plays of power and connection, both good and bad, and then observing the results that they create..., and that's when I started to really like notice that, oh my goodness, everything that you do in your life comes down to communication and how you're either connecting or having power with or over somebody. Great, thank you, and I think right now many professionals are kind of diving into that conversation with themselves and reevaluating what they want on a professional experience because of what is going on in the world today how it's impacting their situations or their companies. When discovering what you really want, what are some key steps someone can take to start clarifying that process? I look at that as a little bit of the inverse and I think that sometimes the easiest way for us to clarify tangibly what we want externally is to start with the internal. How do we want to feel? In other words, if I want to feel more autonomous or I want to feel more freedom, or I want to feel more creative or, as they say in the UK, Innovative, then the next thing that you have to ask yourself as then what vision might I cass that will allow me to feel that way? And then my one of my all prime favorite coaching questions that I use with my own CEO clients is the day will then who do you need to become to fulfill that vision so you can feel how you want to feel. But I really do think that the best way to start is if you have some type of external desire, then the first place that you go is with internal clarity. Love that internal clarity and that's staying open to the possibility in conversations. I kind of read that through in your book a little bit. So I'm curious how can you take that possibility of being open as who you are as a leader in your communication and really apply to team motivation in your daytoday work? I think that for some leaders it's really hard to let go and I think that we get so married to the very specific vision that we lose again, you know what that vision is trying to create as a whole. And so to step back and say, okay, I've got my strategy, I've got my operational plan, you know, I know the culture that I want. And then then you have to be comfortable enough to say now I need to let go, I need to detach, because if I let go of the how, the how might actually meet and exceed my vision. And so it's not like you let go of the end goal, it's not like you let go of the end purpose. What you do is you let go of the very specific how and that in that instance, you end up, and this is what I love about leadership, is when you surround yourself with brilliant people and you let go, you allow them to cocreate the future with you, and when they co create the future, you've got more buy and you have more engagement and the vision usually exceeds anything that you ever actually imagined in the first place. Letting go, I think, is key. You see macromanagement a lot in leadership and sometimes leaders kind of get lost in their own thoughts. So you do have an explanation in your book about how you and contract a situation once where a leader didn't know what they wanted. When you have a leader who may not be able... voice what they really want, they can't have that conversation with you, how do you, as a team member, help steer that conversation and manage it effectively through conversation questions? And I say that with an exclamation point. And so I'm a big believer in the reflective, valuative and predictive questions and it's making sure that you ask those questions. Yes, of your colleagues and your direct support, but it's about managing up. And so oftentimes, you know, I work with senior executives and was a well, the thing, you know, just wasn't clear, and I said, well then, it's your responsibility to ask. And it's not about asking with interrogation tactics and again making somebody feel like what's your agenda? It's more the exploratory of the help me understand and what are your thoughts behind and how might we and then how might we define success and what would look like? You know, the the consequences of the unintended consequences of this and really give me yourself permission to say, Hey, this isn't about finding the right answer, it's about ensuring that I have true alignment and clarity. But the person that I'm following and I can imagine that would be a tough conversation. Sometimes maybe easier, but I want to fringe on the tough conversations. Why do leaders avoid tough conversations and what is the one thing that they must recognize in order to change that mindset? What advice would you have? I think it's getting really honest with yourself, because I think there's a myriad of reasons why leaders avoid the tough conversation. I think that in my work over the years I've seen trends that include, you know, they're concerned about losing power or they're concerned about making things worse than they already are. And I would say that the one thing that is a common denominator, irrespective of the driver of wanting to avoid that tough conversation, is that a leader does not want to be uncomfortable and so they will do everything that they can to avoid discomfort. And I spend a lot of time looking in the eyes of leaders whether it's from stage or expoking call and saying I want you to get really comfortable with being uncomfortable, I want you to sit in the discomfort, and that can apply to so many areas of life, both personally and professionally. But I have found that when leaders are willing to sit in the discomfort, when they are willing to look at their thoughts, their emotions, their nerves, their anxiety, their fears and work through them, they become a much more powerful leader on the other side of those moments. Again, for many reasons, they can better relate to their constituents, they have better emotional intelligence and empathy, they have the better ability to problem solve, forecast make decisions down the road and they're more comfortable than with taking calculated risks. And so to me, being comfortable with your discomfort it's just a game changer and I like how you kind of dive into... how empathy is part of that. We see empathy as a characteristic and leadership all the time. Why is that so important? To lean into that discomfort but be empathetic in your conversations? Because connection is everything. So to me that human dynamic of leaders who lead with connection, who say to their constituents, their followers. I get you, I get what you're going through. Are leaders that will have far more loyal followers and can have more robust dialog about challenging things and not be threatened by it because they're already connected with somebody. And so, for instance, if you're talking to somebody and you know that there's a constant power play, you don't feel safe. You know it's not safe for you to have a tough or challenging conversation. And so I think that the leaders who say are right, I'm going to lead with empathy and connection are the ones that will then be able to lead the robust dialogs that are disruptive, then that are going to force people to to adapt and change and create an even more vibrant future. If that cannot happen until you have connected with somebody and created a safe space. And you've talked about connection and you've both also talked about power. So I know in your book you talk about how you can't really have both. Are Rarely can have both. Can you explain that a little bit more? What is that connection versus that power relationship and how it would affect partnerships in the workplace. I have kind of a provocative perspective and I really don't think that connection and power happens simultaneously. I think that it's often a choice. You'll either see power over somebody, powered dominion, using maybe even a title for what I call Bs, you know, authoritarian power. But it's the connection with that leads them to power with and that's the irony. So it's to me if you can set aside the fact that you need to have a power play over somebody for coercion, it's the idea of again, when people use power to get their way, it's usually, sadly, because they believe it's the only way they can get what they want. They they don't tend to practice the law of reciprocity. They don't tend to practice the idea that if I connect with somebody and understand what it is that they're after, that, you know, maybe I'll get what I want as well. But I think that I want to also be really careful here. Power can absolutely be used for good. I mean power is about a sense of self, honoring the worth of your own voice, speaking of drawing a line in the sand, using boundaries to hold your own when you are trying to collaborate with somebody else to achieve a common vision or a goal. You just want to set the power plays aside so that you can actually connect with and create forward momentum and as a company, we should all be working towards one common goal. So that's great. I know that many times that leaders, especially those are new to position, will look at their sea suite or their president as a position of a pointed power, and you talk a little bit about that in your book as well and... leader cast. Our mission here is to let people know that you don't need a title to be a leader. You can definitely be a leader within your team. But for those who are new leaders, how do they set up their personal power and gain credibility within their teams? How does that work together? Well, I think it's a fundamental need, and that is communication skill that you can articulate a vision that people buy into and then you can operate and communicate a set of values that align with the individuals in the team that you're leading. And this is why so many immature leaders or inexperience leaders just wanted to stick a ban, because it allows for Lazy Communication, Lazy Direction, there's no pushback. And so one of the things that I tell emerging leaders all the time is it is your job to communicate on a daily basis and such a way that you earn the credibility that you earn the respective of others. And when I say communicate, I don't mean mean necessarily that it's about you. You're reaching out and tapping in to find out others ideas and do include an engage their input. And so one of the things that we often talk about with leaders is that they're scared to be challenged, and I said that's actually going to prevent you from being more successful faster. The more that you invite people to push back, the more comfortable you get with being challenged in you're thinking, the better decision, problemsolver and vision aire you become. Feedback is crucial to growth. So thank you for saying that. I know we all are curious on how you can ask for that feedback. We've noticed right now, in this turbulent time that we're in, that communication is definitely key. Even if you don't have the right answers, it is important for our leaders to step up and say we're working through what we're working through. What is one question a leader can ask their team to help them, to keep them engaged with not only the company but as a team member when they're going through so much turmoil outside of work. One of the things that we teach in customer service is that it really boils down to and I know this is an oversimplification, but it really works. Everything in customer service is about response and resolves, meaning how quickly do you get back to somebody and then how effectively do you solve their problem? My my belief, my personal opinion, is that it's no different when it comes to customer service of leadership. You are serving the people that you leave and so it's really all about response and resolve times. And so right now, especially in turbulent times, I really believe that one of the leader's best questions is, how might we bet set you up for success? In other words, what do you need right now for me, resources, support that can help you execute on your task right now and when that changes, like in turbulent and emerging times, when that need is shifting on a weekly basis, just going back to those that you lead and saying, okay, well, now this week,... might we best set you up for success really goes a long way to saying hey, you've got my back, you realize that I've got things that I need to do and you're here to help me be successful. I'll follow you anywhere. Thank you for that. I'm going to shift us over to a different facet of conversation. You mentioned something called the Eagle Hook. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and why it's important to know about it as a leader? I love you go hook. So one of the things that I love about it is because everybody has one, even when they don't want to admit it. And so egil Hook is that dangerous ground when you're having a conversation with somebody and you realize, Oh my God, not, this is not the only conversation that we're having. So in this podcast scenario, you and I are having a dangible conversation. I'm having a conversation in my head, you're having a conversation in your head and then there are thousands of listeners who are having conversations in their own head simultaneously. The Ego Hook is the moment that somebody says, what does this conversation say about me? So, for example, if you go to a leader and you're working for this leader and you say, Hey, I really need to talk to you about Jane Doe. Her performance is really bad and you haven't taken into consideration that this leader that you're talking to interview Jane, Hire Jane, has been mentoring Jane. If you don't walk into that conversation, oh where, that you might hook their ego as to well, what are you saying? Am I bad hier, my bad leader? Am I a bad mentor then it's very possible that you're going to hook this person's ego. So it's not having that kind of perspective piece of all the conversations around you. I never thought about it in that way of knowing that you always know somethings in something my else has had when you're talking to them and how they're can perceive it. So thank you for explaining that a little bit for us. Absolutely and one of the things that I really encourage leaders to do is to think about all the constituents and the myriad of possible ego hook before you even walk into a tough conversation, to really think it through, like how might I trip this person up? You know, where might I unintentionally step in it, where might there be an unintended consequence where they might actually interpret or personalize what I'm about to say. And so I often say just doing the role play and the refersal before you walk into a tough conversation can set you up for success. Let's say you do step in it. Right, you mess up. We all do it. As leaders. It's a little bit more in the forefront. So you mess up, you have to own it. What are some critical steps that you can take our conversations that you should have to keep your credibility intact? Oh my goodness. All right, so this full stop. Own It. I'll start there. Just own it. So one of one of the ways that leaders lose credibility so quickly is they start to do the defend and the displex and those leaders that maintain their credibility to get it, you know, the misstep to be yesterday's news pretty quickly is...

...they step out and they apologize. Now, if it's a slight transgression, it might be something as simple as, Oh, you know, I'm sorry, my bad, but it could be a transgression that's far more serious, and so I always tell leaders that there's four things that need to be in every single apology. The first is that you accept responsibility without explanation or excuse it. You just absolutely own it. Then number two, you express remorse. The third thing that you do is you either offer restitution or some way to make amends, and then you promise not to do it again. And so I think that what happens is we often hear leaders say, Oh, you know, I misspoke yesterday, but I was tired, and you're like, okay, well, that just negated everything that you just said because you're fold with excuses. Or somebody will say, Oh, you know, Angie, if, if I hurt your feelings, and you're like, okay, that's not apology and now you're putting the burden on me and my feelings aren't hurt so easily. Why didn't just you own up to your bad behavior? Right? And so one of the things that I highly encourage leaders to do is just without defense on your misstep and then everybody can move forward more quickly. Let's reverse that. So, as a leader, if you see someone else dude on your team, how do you have that tough conversation? Do you just open up with those four steps that you just indicated? Well, I think that one of the worst things that you can do is you can demand an apology from somebody because it makes them feel like they're four years old, you know. It's like, yeah, you should apologize to your brother. I demand that you apologize your so we don't we don't want to regrets on that. So one of the things go encourage leaders to do is to model the behavior that they want like that, to me, is the first thing. And so a lot of times, from a human perspective, we think that it's too late. And so I always, always say, look, even if it's a human moment and you are too upset to apologize for a MISSTEP, you know, five seconds after you made it, it's never too late to go back and say to somebody, Hey, you know what, yesterday I overreacted. Todday I want to respond thoughtfully and then and you move on from there. So, if you've got a direct report the quote unquote, misstepped and needs to apologize, I'm going to encourage you not to ask for an apology, because now you're giving your power away, but to connect with them and to lean in and start a conversation with you. Yesterday you sounded really frustrated and you shouted in a way that really caught me by surprise. Can you tell me the thought behind the shout? Can you help me understand? And that's really leaning in to then start a conversation about acceptable behavior. But you don't, you don't bring somebody in your office to read them in if you want long term behavioral change and it allows them to have that sense of empowerment, you know, address your own behavior. I messed up. How could I self improve? So that's great. And yet, talking about empowerment, there was a piece in your book that I read through that I think many leaders have had this. This happened to them. I...

...know I certainly have, where someone walks into your office and just starts unloading, whether it could be about another colleague or something where you're just trying to figure out what they're trying to get to you. And you speak of the phrase and you're sharing this with me in the hope that I do what. So can you break down why that phrase is so important in giving your team resources? I'm being successful. I love this magical phrase. I am a huge curator of magical phrases and even though I don't believe in scripting, like in our sails turning. I refused to have people script, but I love having these back pocket brilliant one liners. So yes, as you say, somebody walks into your office, they're venting, their winding, their complaining, they're nagging, their back you know, for whatever's going on, it's really important to stop the diatribe and get them to do critical thinking, to own what it is that they're they're talking about or taking oxygen up with. And so I just love the phrase. Well, you're hoping, you bringing this to me with the hope that I do what or how are you hoping that I respond to this information? And it's not. It's not confrontational. You know, your tone is not to aggravate. You're actually asking. I'm just curious, like how are you hoping that I respond to this? What are you what are you wanting for me? So somebody might say, well, I need you to fire Bernadette and you're like, oh, okay, well, I'm not willing to fire Bernadette, but here's what I am willing to do. But what you're forcing them to do is to stop, take a deep breath and think about what their motive is. What is their long term gain by venting in your office. Now, again, if it's brand new and somebody's there for the first time in they're venting, which really important, to make a safe face and you might lead with something like hey, you know, I'm always here for you, I'm just curious, like how are you hoping that I respond to this, or what do you want me to do with this information? But it really forces them to stop, get clear and be like yeah, why am I venting, like what outcome am I looking for, and then you can either align with it or redirect, based on the feedback that they give you, to your questions. I I think pausing is so important, and that actually reminds me. Before our call, I was doing a lot of research and I read your book, I was reading through some blogs, you have some great videos on your website and there was a phrase that really stuck out to me. Your reaction doesn't define you, your response does. So just what we just spoke about how you respond to your team. I would love for you to dive in a little bit more on why it's so important for leaders to remember this in conversations, that your reaction doesn't define you, your response does. We're humans, we are going ninety miles an hour and we don't always get it right, but the the more quickly that we own the misstep or we own the transgression, the faster we get back to saying this is who I want to be in the world and this is how I want to operate in the world, and so I'll be vulnerable for a second. You know, there's that classic pre Covid we were traveling constantly, right you know, seventy five hundred speaking events a...

...year. You know, you're showing up at places, you're burned out, you're exhausted, you you don't know what time zone you're in. Sometimes you're short and you don't even realize it. Like something comes out of your mouth and you're talking to some innocent soul and you don't even realize that you're short. Here's the difference, though. Do you just excuse it, do you tell yourself that you're allowed to behave that way, or do you take that moment to say, okay, my reaction doesn't define me, but my response does, and then you either apologize or you say Oh, you know what I'm I'm tired, and that's no excuse. I owe you an apology. I did not mean to be short, going back the next day and and and owning it. It's just how you want to play long term. The other thing that I when I work with leaders off and say, you know, you're also allowed to experience human emotions, because we're humans. We can be jealous, we can be envious, we can be competitive, we can feel guilty, we can say or do something from a not so hot moment in our lives. But again, that doesn't define you. You're allowed to be human. It's so what do you do with that? And so there's a great story. Not Not too long ago, I was sitting in a meeting with a client and this gentleman walked in is like I just one forty under forty and everybody's congratulating them. And then this other gentleman says, and you cannot make the stuff up, Angie, another gentleman says you paid for that award right, like your company had to buy that. And I was like, Oh, okay, that's a reaction. Yeah, fell US little envy right, and we get it. We totally get it. This is a normal human reaction. But what's fantastic is I waited for the defining response. You know I waited to see if he chose to play better, and in that particular moment he didn't. But I also know that there are other people that when they have that type of reaction, and then a second later they're like all, all right, I'm just using your first round of drinks is on me. And what you realize is we can have these moments, but then how do we choose to thoughtfully respond, and having that thoughtful response sometimes makes a pause so worthwhile. You just have to sit there ensure that you know what you're saying. And you do talk about the power of pause, so let's talk about how that can strengthen those conversations. Why is the pause so important when you're having conversations? For me, when it's a genuine pause, it shows that you are listening and processing. So if it's not staged, if it's not canned, then it really is just a moment to let the words get fully absorbed and to process all the nuances and to see if you really understand that you have clarity. And so for me the pause is am I really hearing the full message and my listening to what's spoken and unspoken. So again, we're human. We can react really quickly, but then we miss a new once and that's often where conversations will go arise, will go down some bunny hole because we just didn't really listen very carefully in...

...the first place. And so that pause to make sure that I really understand what you have said, but I'm really absorbing it. And then, if I'm not sure, clarifying it and say hey, andy, here's what I hear you saying. Did I get it right? Or here's here's an any you like? You sound frustrator, you sound disappointed or you sound am I right? Is that what you're feeling? And then here's what I tell leaders. And it's okay if you're wrong. It's totally okay if you're wrong, because as long as you're asking, they're going to correct you and then you have fantastic accurate insult. So if I say okay, and you know it sounds like you you feel really disappointed and you're like, oh no, no, I'm not disappointed, but I am frustrated, and it's like, Oh, okay, it's okay to be wrong. But what I love about the pause is you're asking yourself, is my story true? Is My version of what I'm hearing accurate and am I responding in such a way that gave you space to actually make sure that you felt heard? I have been in conversations where someone has pause and sometimes I don't do well with silence sometimes and I feel like I just had to jump in and feel that void. And you know, listening is so important and sometimes I think when we talk about conversations it's all about the verbal aspect, but we don't talk about the listening aspect. So, when you think about conversations, is that a fifty thought process, the verbal with also listening? How does that compute in a conversation of quality? Well, I have a proxy provocative perspective on that. I don't think every conversation is a two way conversations. I think sometimes you're in a conversation and somebody wants to side track it or they blindside you and you need to stay with the conversation at hand. So oftentimes I will say, you know, if somebody's talking, and they'll be like what do you think? I'm like, well, I'm listening right now, like I'm absorbing, I'm receiving, and I want to make sure that I absorb and receive it all before we do this tit for tat right. So what happens in most arguments is you accuse somebody of something, they get defensive and then they accuse you of something else. And so one of the things that I believe in owning your own power and not giving your power away is making sure that you're having one conversation at a time. So classic, you know, couple somebody will nag somebody else and then somebody who's been nags will point out the fault of somebody else and I will say, Hey, I'm happy to talk about that, but this conversation is about so let's finish this conversation first before we get sidetracked by that one or just move to that one, you know, depending on how aggressive the agenda is. But I also think in this is really important. We talk about pausing. Is sometimes you get into like these pause contacts, like, you know, if it is the classic sales ridiculousness of you like who, he who speaks terst loses, I'm like not, if you ask a question, like not, if you have he r. So oftentimes I've, you know, over the years I've sat with just some again,...

...just some goof balls across the table and you'll just sit there and you realize they're doing the whole power play thing and I'm like, so, are we in a pause contest? Or I'll joke, I'll be like Um, so, how awkward is this moment? And you realize very quickly that it is just silly. It's just silliness. The pause is not a staged pause. You are pausing to understand, you are pausing to connect, not pausing to manipulate, pausing a process. I like it. Thank you for explaining the difference, because I was going to ask about the stalemate of that contest. So that just puts in a different perspective. This month at leader cast we are really focused on the theme of influence, in the idea that, as a leader, your influence has a ripple effect to those around you. When it comes to influence and conversations, what is the most important piece of advice you have for leaders listening today? I have said for almost thirty years now that life happens one conversation at a time and the life that you desire is on the other side of a tough conversation and I think that leaders to realize that their ripple effect. It happens one conversation. That's time then show up so much more prepared, so much more thoughtful and so much more ready to lead in that moment. So with not leading milestone to milestone, it is leading from conversation to conversation. Great and seeing the long aim at having the short game as well. Thank you for that and, obviously, on the leader cast podcast, I have to ask you to help us with our mission to fill the world's leaders were following. So, in your opinion, what makes a leader worth following? For My homele perspective, just how I have lived my life, I I believe that a leader worth following is one who has a future where they envision this outcome that I envision as well. I mean we're aligned on the future that we want to create and we're aligned with how we want to create it. And so the the idea that there's a future that's bigger and batter and bolder, and I also agree with how we're going to create it, then I'm all in im gate. Thank you so much for your time today. As I said, I was a little intimidated to have a conversation with someone who talks about conversation. So you are really great and giving us all this great content and really making this podcast great for the leaders who are hoping to improve their conversations as well as they're listening skills. Do you have any lastminute thoughts you want to give our audience? Well, I appreciate the brilliant question because it's really easy to have a robust dialog when you've got when you've done all the great research, and it barked my own thinking. But I just say to everyone listening, you know, life gets a lot easier when you take it one conversation at its time,...

...and we just did that. Amy Kate, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you everyone for journeying us today with this conversation. I hope you've heard something that allows you to strengthen your conversation skills as you continue to lead your teams forward. You can connect with amykan twitter at amy K Hutchins, or purchase her books through our podcast blog at leadercastcom, as well as other major book retailers. Be sure to check out our website, amy kcom to learn more about her coaching and speaking opportunities. This month, leadercast has content focus on the topic of influence. Check out our blogs, newsletters, webinars, videos and more by visiting leader CAASTCOM. And if you liked what you heard today, please share, rate and review this podcast so we can grow our following and help leaders like yourself on their leadership journeys. Check out our previous episodes and subscribes so you never miss the latest from the leader cast podcast. Again, thank you for tuning in. Now go be a leader worth following. According to research from Edelman and Linkedin, almost sixty percent of decision makers said that thought leadership led them to awarding business to an organization. Sweet Phish media helps marketing teams turn their executives into industry thought leaders. Learn more by visiting sweet phish MEDIACOM. Leader cast. Thanks for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.

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