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The Leadercast Podcast
The Leadercast Podcast

Episode · 2 years ago

54. The Dos and Don’ts of Respectful Leadership w/ Gregg Ward

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Respectful leadership unites the Golden Rule with the Platinum Rule.

Treat others how you want to be treated and how they want to be treated.

Is this an impossible goal? 

In this episode, we interview Gregg Ward, speaker and author of The Respectful Leader, about the dos and don’ts of respectful leadership.

What we talked about:

  • Self-respect is about having self-confidence
  • Nip disrespectful behaviors in the bud with the SBI strategy
  • How to offer a full apology & the 1 word not to use (“but”)
  • The problem with cell phones

Check out this resource we mentioned during the podcast:

Check out the full podcast with Gregg Ward by clicking here.

If you don’t use Apple Podcasts as your audio player, you can also find every episode at this link.

This is the leader cast podcast, helping you be a leader worth following. Hello everyone, and welcome to the leader cast podcast. I am Angi errands and today we are going to talk about respectful leadership and how your influence is a leader impacts the team around you. I don't know about you, but I know respect is more than a psalm by aretha Franklin. It is something we are taught as children with the idea that it will carry us through our adulthood. It's more than please and thank you, though. Respect takes practice, especially when it comes to leadership. Sometimes respect is assumed with a title, but is believed that in order to gain respect, you must first give it. Today we're going to dive into this a little bit more with Greg Ward. Greg Ward is a management consultant, trainer, coach and the founder and Executive Director of the Center for respectful leadership. He is on a mission to help leaders and their organizations develop their skills around respectful leadership, emotional intelligence in the executive presence, using skills and techniques from his professional training in live theater. Greg began his career as a specialist trainer for the NYPD. Today we'll speak with him as he shares some of whose key insights outlined in his best selling book, the respectful leader. But before we get started, if you're interested in growing your leadership skills and focusing on specific areas, leader casts can help you with that. With our ever growing leadership I very leader cast now is an online resource for your leadership development. Get the solutions to your leadership challenges on any device at the moment. You need it. To learn more, go to now doubt leader castcom Hello Greg, thanks for joining us today. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, it's absolutely our pleasure. Yeah, we were just talking earlier before we started recording, about your book the respectful leader, and I have to ask right off the bat, let's just get some conversation going about the perspective of our topic, what is respectful leadership? In your words? That is a great question and one I'm asked often. I like to think of it as going back to basics. When we were raised as children, we were often taught, for example, to say please and thank you and to Greek people genuinely and be pleasant and generally carry ourselves and comport ourselves with decency. And respect, and somewhere along the line work and life came crashing in and we tend to forget about those things. That many people refer to something called the golden rule and we're all familiar with it. It actually is and all of the world's great religious texts, and it basically says do one too others as you would have them do unto you, which is a great way to live your life. Except there's a big but here. Not Everybody wants to be done unto the same way. For example,...

I would prefer to ask people before, when I meet them, how they want to be addressed. If do they have letters after their name that I should acknowledge, such as doctor or something like that. So I try to be as respectful as I can based on what I believe the other person how they want to be treated. So that brings me to the platinum rule, and the platinum rule was developed by Dr Tony Alessandra during the S, and essentially it goes like this, do unto others as they would have you do unto them. So respectful leadership, when we boil it all down, is the golden rule. Doing to others as you would have them doing to you and the platinum rule do unto others, as they would have you do unto them. Working together in concert great and I know that the platinum rule has definitely some leadership qualities to it, as you're had to kind of adapt to the people around you. So if you're thinking about adapting your leadership style to treat others the way they want to be treated, I assume selfrespect has to be part of that as well. Right. Absolutely. It's generally found that if you're the kind of controlling manager, what people negatively refer to as a control freak, what that comes from is is self doubt and and fear that the other person is going to live up to your standard or you're not going to be able to get what you need in order to be successful. So people tend to over control others and most people there are. Research tells us most people do not like to be controlled. Roughly ten percent of US are okay with it, but roughly ninety percent of US find it very, very disrespectful. So self respect is all about having self confidence, knowing that you know what you know, you are confident in that and you're not going to push it upon anybody else. You're not going to be arrogant or, you know, promote self promoting about it. So what what I urge folks to when I'm coaching them around their leadership style is if they're seeming to always trying to be egotistical or pushing themselves on others or controlling others, I say, come on, take a step back. What do you have pride in yourself? What what do you have about you that that gives you a sense of confidence in yourself? And I said let's let's focus on those strengths and less upon you trying to push yourself on other people. So self respect is really about self confidence. It's not about self promotion, boasting or EGO. That makes perfect sense as you're kind of talking through leaders that I've encountered in my life and, as I mentioned, I was reading through your book and you have seven dues a respectful leadership and I want to dive in just a couple of them. I don't want to give them all the way. You can definitely do that on your end, but the first one I want to talk...

...about is the first do is be the first to respect this month that leader cast. Our content theme is influence and the idea of respect being contagious comes from being the first to lead with it. Can you tell us a bit more on why it's important to be the first respect and what have you discovered in the research of this? Yeah, that's an excellent question. Being the first to respect comes from that particularly respectful do comes from our research, where we have determined that if a leader is the someone in charge, someone perceived to be the boss or the leader of the team, the organization, what have you, if they're the first one to behave in a way that most people find reasonably respectful, what happens in the persons who are receiving that respect first is a neuroscientific process called the release of oxytocin. It's a particular hormone, also known as the bonding or love hormone. Now, when you feel respected, your brain sends a signal through what's called the Amygdala to release oxytocin and you get a little feel good. You feel good. So what we found is when leaders go out of their way way to treat others, even people they've never met before, even absolute strangers, with respect first, the people who are on the receiving end of that respect get a little bit of of oxytocin. They actually feel good and they into it that the reason they're feeling good is because they were treated in a way that they found respectful. What happens then is usually they will reciprocate with respect. And again, this is a neuroscientific process, it's a chemical process, and so the leader is treating people with respect first then receives respect back and if it happens enough, eventually there becomes what's called a confirmation bias, in which both people feel that the other person is respectful. It's very powerful and it's very infectious, and so what we're trying to encourage all leaders to do is get out of your comfort zone and be respectful first. Don't assume just because you're the boss or the leader, that you should wait for others to treat you with respect. Instead, you go first and you're going to start a chain reaction of respect that is very, very powerful and very effective as a leadership and influencing tool. So this impacts a team. There's a ripple effect. You just mentioned that. How does that ripple effect produce better results for a team dynamic? Well, what we've found in our research and our experience has proven that if you have respectful behaviors that are agreed to by the team, and we often encourage teams to have an open conversation about what is considered the team norm in...

...terms of respect and behaviors. Once the team has come to a common agreement on what those things are, the person who doesn't behave in the way the team has agreed is respectful will stand out like a sore thumb and will either modify their behavior to fall in line with what the group norms are, or they will self select out or the team will eventually find a way not to have them as part of the team. Now that might worry some folks because they're thinking, Oh wow, that means the team is exerting in enormous amount of pressure for to force people to fit in. What about diversity? What about inclusion behaviors? I would argue that being inclusive is very, very respectful and holding people accountable for respectful behavior, which we know drives performance and partnership, partnership and productivity. We know this for a fact that the more respectful the team is, the more likely there have high levels of performance and partnership. That doesn't mean that we're all walking around on eggshells with each other. But what it does mean is we have a group of a commonly agreed norms that we're going to do it here to and we're going to call each other out on it in a safe and respectful way when we don't meet those norms. There's ways to do that. There's a process for doing that. It is respectful, it can be done. It just takes intentionality. So, at the end of the day, that was a rather long winded response to your question. What we found is that groups that have agreed upon respectful norms do very, very well, even if they are extraordinarily diverse, and in fact they are supported by that diversity. And that is the perfect segue into one of the other ones that I love. The other dudes, the NIP re disrespect in the butt. Respectfully, when you look at people who are disrespectful from a team member, you mentioned it's important to do this right away. Why is that important and how do you manage to do that in a private setting a public setting? Give us some advice on how to address disrespect immediately. Addressing disrespect is not some something that a lot of us are eager to do. It is a learned skill it is a taught skill and essentially the reason we urge leaders to nip disrespect in the bud early on is because of a process that we call gunny sacking. Now, gunnysacking, you might have heard of a gunny sack. It's a burlap sack that you used to put goods in and carry things around in and in the old days. So what it means is that you and I, as we are going about our business working with each other, if we perceive a behavior that we find disrespectful...

...coming from each other, we might not say anything, we might not do anything, and but we do put it in the gunny sack. We just put it in there quietly. And then over time, if behaviors like that keep happening, we start to fill up our gunny sack. Eventually that gunny sack gets really full and instead of taking it to the person we have the issue with, we go into hr or we go under our boss's office and we dump that gunny sack out on the table and say look what's happened here, look at all of this, this person is driving me and saying you need to fire them, you need to do something, and HR's eyes get really wide and say why am I only hearing about this now? Why didn't you come to me much earlier on when we could have addressed it? So the point is, molehills can become mountains really, really fast, and people will fill up their gunny sack and not say a word to each other until it's too late. So what we're trying to urge leaders to understand is if you see even a minor disrespect, such as cutting somebody off in the middle of a sentence, and during a meeting somebody keeps in a rupting somebody, you take them aside and you use a technique that was originally developed by the Center for Creative Leadership, where I'm an executive coach, and it's called SBI, situation, behavior impact, followed by a request, and it's really simple. As the leader, you take the person aside and say hey, you, you recall what are meeting this morning? What I noticed is the behavior that I noticed is that you were cutting people off, and let me tell you, the impact on people is that they feel that you're not listening to them and what they have to say is not important to you, and that's going to negatively impact you. So I'm going to make a request of you. Let people finish before you say what you need to say. Try Not to interrupt people and I'm going to hold you accountable for that. Perhaps will have a little signal that I can give you that I notice you're doing it, but that is I want to nip this in the bud now before it gets bigger and impacts the whole team in a very negative way. So it's a simple way to do that. Now, inside of it is you're going to face some defensiveness. If you're a leader doing this kind of thing, you're going to face some defensiveness and you need to say some certain things about how you respect the individual that you're sure they didn't intend to disrespect other people. Perhaps they were just trying to solve a problem quickly. You get it. You're trying to be a team player. However, this behavior is having a negative impact on you and on the team. Once you say those kinds of things, most reasonable people will say, I got it, I'll mind myself, I'll be more aware of what I'm doing. Thanks very much, boss. Now you also ask me if, if this is something to do in public, I would in front of others, I would say absolutely not. If you've got one person who's behaving in a disrespectful way, you never...

...want to call them out in public. It's just going to make things worse, it's going to cause embarrassment and shame and it's a really problematic thing. The time to call it out in public is when the group is involved in the behavior together. That's when, for example, of everybody's cutting each other off on the meeting and the tension is high and there's that's when you, as a leader, just need to say hey, everybody, let's all take a deep breath. I'm noticing here that a lot of people are cutting each other off, we're not listening to each other. We need to take a deep breath and fact, let's go, let's take a break and and come back in a few minutes when we can all focus more on the challenge at hand rather than trying to top each other. So it really depends on the behaviors, who's doing it, how many people are engaged, on whether you're going to do something like that in private or in public. And I think some of the leaders might have a knee jerk reaction to that because if you're being disrespected in public, oneonone. The kneed jerk reaction is to can maybe do it right away, immediately, because you don't want to lose the respect of other people in the room. Is there a balance with that process? I camletly respect. Understand why you pull them aside, but what about everyone else? Is watching the situation right and what you can do is after the fact, you can make a general comment right then and there. Again, I would never single anybody out in public. It's just too damaging and it can damage the the dynamic of the group that individual for will definitely feel either some shame or anger frustration and they're going to be useless for the rest of the meeting. I'll tell you that. But what you can do is to say in general terms, hey, everybody, I'm noticing our tensions is a little high. Let's all take a breath, let's all take a break, and you could do it that way and and that will be good. When people pick up on what you're trying to do, you do the private you nip that disrespect in the bud privately and if you feel there's a need to go back to the team and reassure them about the expected norms, that's fine. You go back to them the next day and say hey, guys, I want to be sure we all understand here. These are the expectations that we agreed to of each other. We're going to hold each other accountable and please rest assured I take this very seriously and I'm going to handle disrespect as I see it, and I hope you will trust me that. I feel this is very important that you don't need to again single anybody out. I'm very much against that, but you can say general things where people get the message without anybody being singling has singled out. My other question about that is so you address it, you pull them aside privately, you have the conversation, but it kind of creeps back in. What advice you have for those...

...who are listening to address this behavior? Is this one and done thing? Is that several strikes? How does that process work? Thank you so much for asking that question. I have what I call the to strike rule. I'm not a big fan of zero tolerance and I'm not a big fan of the one strike rule. I think that was driven by legal departments and not about, not by organizational development experts. So, generally speaking, a less the behavior is super egregious such as, you know, groping or harassment or violence or things like that. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt and so I'm going to run that sbire technique with them privately the first time and I'm going to say, look, this is the first time this has come up. I'm addressing it now. I believe in the two strike rule. So I'm assuming you've gotten the message and that we won't see this behavior again. If we do see this behavior again, I can guarantee you it's going to ratch it up. How we're going to address this. I'm sure you understand and I'm sure you don't want this to go any further. Thank you very much, and this is not a discussion. By the way, if you're the leader and you're talking to a team member and you're saying I'm going to give you a first strike here and expect there won't be a second, that is your right. You they don't get to push back on you. That is that is who you're supposed to be. Now, if they do engage in the second strike, then you know it's going to get formal. You're going to be making notations, you might even be reporting the HR I would come down on them like a ton of bricks, quite frankly, because, come on, I gave you. I gave you a clearer of warning in the first strike and and now you're doing this again. So that that tells me you either didn't hear or you don't respect the group and the group norms of expectations. So, therefore it's I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't hold you accountable, and that's what I'm going to do. My other favorite do is the offer full apology. What happens when a leader just loses their pastor they lose their cool and they need to apologize for their behavior? What does that look like in that process? Is that a public private what's the pros and cons? How does it full apology work? All excellent questions. The answer to the question is it private or public is it depends. If the behavior that you engaged in as a leader was with one person who you could you basically, they either told you or you you came to understand that was disrespectful. They considered it disrespectful, then a private apology would be appropriate and in that apology you would essentially see you would you...

...would own it. You would say, look, the other day I did this, and then you would talk about the impact of that behavior on the individual, such as I lost my temper with you the other day. Clearly it. You felt embarrassed by the way I treated you. You felt this respected. It had a negative impact upon you and I am sorry for that and I can assure you that I will do my utmost to not have that happened again in the future and I'm going to try to make it up to you. And here's how I'm going to try and do that. And then you begin to engage in the behaviors that are appropriate and to demonstrate to the individual that your sincere and genuine. You'll notice the one thing I didn't say in that apology was the word but or. Here's why I did that, because those are excuses. The moment you say, but hey, I'm sorry I yelled at you the other day, but I was really stressed out. Bingo, that apology just falls completely flat. You've just made an excuse for yourself. If a genuine, sincere apology makes no excuses, it it admits what you did, it owns it. You describe the impact of the behavior on the other person. You make a genuine commitment to not an engage of that behavior in the future. Never say, but never make an excuse because you're bit. You basically just blown it and the other person doesn't trust you and you you would have been better off not apologizing at all in terms of a public apology. That's when you've done something that everybody knows is disrespectful. Again, you may have been in a meeting. A classic example. You may have been in a meeting and you just, you just lost it. You lost your your cool, you started cursing not only about the problem but at people, and you were yelling in and out. I basically out of control that that's a classic example of the flip side of that is shutting down. Sometimes you shut down and bury your head in you in your cell phone during a meeting. That's totally not leader like behavior. And so if you want to apologize for those things again, you follow the same pattern. You say to the group. Hey, everybody, the other day during our meeting I lost my temper or I completely shut down and buried my head and in my phone. I apologize for that. I shouldn't have done it. It's sent the wrong message to all of you and I know it's had a negative impact upon you. I'm not going to be doing those things again and I sincerely apologize and move on and move on and do your utmost not to engage...

...in those behaviors again. Great, thank you. Those are some of my favorite dues and obviously we talked about dudes. It's only proper. We talked about don'ts. You had seven dues and five don'ts. The one I really want to focus on first is not. Are Not tolerating disrespect. Unfortunately, we see toleration of it sometimes in the workforce. Blind eye, if you will. Why would people tolerate disrespect on teams? And as a team member, how can you bring this up to your leader to address it if they don't see it? Boy, you that you've hit the nail on the head. Our research is telling us that the number one cause of disrespect will behavior in the workplace is stress, and I think we can all agree that currently they were experiencing enormous amounts of stress, that this our whole system, our world is under stress and that is going to be reflected in our behavior and there's a generally a toleration of disrespect where people say, especially leaders say, you know what, this is business. We've just got to get things done. I don't have time for respect. The those are the niceties, nice two haves. We don't have time for the Nice two have. Well, all of our research tells us and all of our experience tells us that if you allow the niceties, if you allow the come what we call the common courtesies and common respects, to go by the wayside, pretty soon productivity and partnership and profitability is going to be impacted very, very negatively. So our research tells us that respect actually forwards the action, that it actually helps people during stressful situations, especially when it's commonly agreed to respectful behaviors amongst the team. So what we're urging leaders is is don't tolerate those little disrespectful behaviors just because everybody's under stress, that that's not an excuse. You can be a stressed out to the Max and still behave in a respectful way. And what's really interesting is if you go through a stressful period can maintaining your respectful behavior, your self confidence is improved significantly. You actually feel better about yourself and your team feels better about you. Is the leader. So you're you're reinforcing the importance of respect, not only with them but also with yourself, regardless of the dire circumstances that are going on. It's very, very powerful. It seems counterintuitive, but actually when you engage in those behaviors, even very stressful times, it reinforces exactly what you want to have happened with the entire...

...team. That makes sense. But thinking through the stressful times I have been in and I walk away feeling yes, I did it. You know you have a little bit more of that in your steps. And how many of us have lost our cool or done something that we know was disrespectful and walked away thinking, ah, I feel bad about myself. I know we were all under stress, I shouldn't have done that and and that can that kind of feeling can infect US and other people can pick it up. Even if it's subtle, our teammates might sense that we've that we're feeling shame or that we're feeling guilty for something and that that doesn't help anybody. So maintaining respectful behavior, I know it's not easy sometimes, but it's incredibly important and incredibly helpful. I know you can't see me right now, but I'm not even a hundred percent agreeing with you, which actually goes into my next question for you, because we had the conversation before we started about turning the camera off so I could actively listen to you, because the video sometimes as a distraction to me. So another don't that I really appreciate is the don't be distracted. Distraction is such a hiccup right now in all forms of everything we do. We have it at our fingertips. We're constantly getting it on all angles. But that is a thing that we might be even more distracted right now in our climate. So, in your opinion, what can be the biggest distraction when it comes to respectful leadership and do you have any advice to combat that? It's it's my personal opinion that are just our biggest distractors are our cell phones and because they're constantly on our person, we could be in the middle of a very important meeting and it's going to buzz, even if it's in our pocket, out of our view, it's going to buzz. We're going to feel that and we're going to be distracted by it. So ideally we want to set that phone out of you and out of touch and focus on the meeting at hand. I mean I kind of want to hit leaders up the side of the head and saying why are you having this meeting if you're going to be distracted and have your head buried in the cell phone the whole time? I mean, what's the point if you can't focus on the meeting? That you're wasting everybody's time, including your own. So if if you feel that you've got too many things going on, well then shorten your meetings are, have less meetings, but for goodness sake, don't be in and in a meeting just having your head ear head buried in the phone. It sends a message to everyone that of disrespect, that you just don't care, that you're more focused on what's going on with your phone. Now we all get urgent messages from family or there's a crisis going on and if that...

...happens, you see it on your phone. You say the group. Listen, folks, I've got a crisis going on here. You'll have to excuse me. I'm going to step out and handle this thing and I'll come right back and then put the phone away or if you if you can't come right back, you'll have to say I'm very sorry, we'll have to schedule this meeting for another time. But the assumption that you can just pay attention to both things, pay attention to it a meeting and pay attention to your phone at the same time, is a fallacy. It's a myth. It doesn't work. There's absolute brain science that proves we spend in an Norderin amount of our our brain just shifting between the different situations that are happening the meeting, what people are saying and the phone, back and forth. Wasted enormous amount of time and we miss important things. So my advice is get this, get the phone out of view and out of touch. When ever you're having a meeting and being very deliberate with your meetings, when, when the meeting starts, say okay, what are we here to do today? When are we going to get it done and, in other words, this meeting, how long are we going to budget for and and keep on track? And that will give you the time to go and check your cell phone once it's done. So how do you combat the note taking of technology? Is that something that you can address in those meetings well, while still being respectful? Yes, and that would come up in the group norms discussion. If, for example, when you bring the team together for the first time to discuss the group norms, you literally say, okay, who takes notes on their phone? WHO TAKES NOTES ON THEIR LAPTOP? And let's be clear, if I notice you're not taking notes but are said, are paying attention to emails or something like that, I'm going to ask you to stop, and I'm going to ask you to stop in front of the group. So, are we all agreed that so Andso Andso and so are taking notes on their laptop and that's the way these meetings are going to occur and there has to be a common agreement amongst all that these are the norms that we're going to hold each other accountable to, and then it's your job to hold them accountable to it and and yourself. I'm going to shift us a little bit because in your book, the respectful leader, you mentioned that conscious capitalism and respectful leadership transform our work environment. What is the primary reason you think this? I think that conscious capitalism, a concept called servant leadership, what I call respectful leadership. These are all cousins and in partnership with each other, because the research is clear. Treating people like commodities, using them up and then discarding them, which is a very common practice today. As you know, the old concept of cradle to grave employment is long gone. My father worked for...

...the same company for forty four years and that's how it was a long time ago. We all know that that's not there anymore and in fact many of us are ten ninety nine contractors and many of our teams are that way and people come and go all the time and and so this, this assumption that people are commodities, is very, very undermining of cohesion, of good outcomes the the other reason I believe that conscious capitalism, servant leadership and respectful leadership are suct are important now is because we're starting to look at the science that just using up our resources and just dumping our waste is destroying the planet and there are many leaders out out there saying, you know what, this is not sustainable. We can't just keep using up our resources, including our people, and then discarding them. We can't just keep polluting and polluting and polluting and assume that it's all going to be fine. We did a long time ago. That's no longer sustainable and in fact the economic research shows that companies that behave in a way in which they value not only their employees and their vendors and their suppliers, but also the communities in which they are based in which they operate, those companies do significantly better. I urge your readers to pick up a book called firms of endearment. There's definitive proof in there that firms that operate from a sustainable model, where they sustained their practices to take care of their communities or employees, are vendors or shareholders, everyone in it together, are much more likely to have very, very good economic and financial outcomes. There's proof of this and a lot of leaders are waking up to it, and you could tell I'm very passionate about it. At the end of the day, I think we are moving despite all the uproar that we're engaged in right now, we are moving more and more in that direction. More and more companies are realizing that sustainable practices, that respectful practices, are actually really good for business. We believe in servant leadership here at leader cast. It's something that we really focus on with both our mission in our values, and I appreciate that being part of the process. We're nearing the end of our episode and it's actually question that we always ask our speakers who join us. Our mission is to fill the world with leaders worth following, so I'm really curious, Greg, in your opinion, what makes the leader worth following? I believe that a leader who is worth following is a leader who practices respect, not only at work but in their life with everyone they meet.

And the evidence is clear. When you behave in a respectful manner, in ways that people find respectful, you will be receiving respect in return and your outcomes will be significantly better than if you weren't respectful. So the best leaders to follow the leaders worth following and the are those that are respectful leaders. Thank you, Greg, so much. I appreciate you joining us today. I want to thank you for having me on. This has been a pleasure. Well, leader, cast listeners, what a great conversation with Greg about respect today. If you had heard him reference commodity, you may have heard that also in our positive disruption event from this past May, when Sangrum addressed people versus commodity versus community. What a great concept to think about when you're respecting as a leader. This month leadercast has content focus on the topic of influence. If you want to hear more about how to strengthen your skills, check out leader caastcom for our blogs, newsletters, webinars, videos and more. If you like what you heard today, please share, rate and review this podcast so we can grow our following and help leaders like yourself on their leadership journey. Check out our previous episode and the subscribes you never miss the latest from the leader cast podcast. Again, thank you for tuning in, and now go be that leader worth following. According to research from Edelman and Linkedin, almost sixty percent of decision makers said that thought leadership led them to awarding business to an organization. Sweet Phish media helps marketing teams turn their executives into industry thought leaders. Learn more by visiting sweet phish MEDIACOM leader cast. Thanks for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.

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