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The Leadercast Podcast
The Leadercast Podcast

Episode · 4 years ago

6: The Power of Honesty in Personal Development w/ Mitch Rumppe

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Mitch Rumppe, Associate Coach at The Whiteboard Room, shares stories of success and failure in personal development, focusing on the honesty it takes to see real results.  He shares creative ways organizations can test the effectiveness and see an early ROI from investing in personal development for their team.

This is the leader cast podcast, helping you be a leader worth following. Okay, everyone, and welcome to the leader cast podcast. I'm Haley Panagakus, your host for this episode and content manager here at a leader cast and I am so excited to be chatting with our honored guests for today, Mitch Rumpe. Mitch is associate coach at the White Board Room, which is a coaching firm that exists to inspire people and companies to reach their personal potential for greatness. Leader cast has had the honor of having the White Board rooms founder, Kim Butler, as a speaker on our leader cast, now leadership video library, and we are thrilled to have Mitch here today. Mitch, welcome, thank you for being here. We're so excited to have you. Oh, it's my pleasure. This is a real honor and my love leader cast and it's really a privilege to come in and speak with you guys. Yeah, we're so excited. So I read that you're originally from Seattle and I'm curious what led you from Seattle to Atlanta and also into coaching in particular. Yeah, totally. I don't even know. I've been in Atlanta now for five years. And so I think if you would ask me five years ago, do you think you'll ever being Atlanta, I probably would have lasted you and been like no way, like, I don't I don't really know. I originally moved to Atlanta to help start the square church in Atlanta, Georgia, and that's really what brought me to Atlanta. I still believe the northwest is best, except now, you know, I'm so used to the sun that when I go back to visit my parents, the gray is just awful. And so I feel like I'm finally adapting to the to the stouth. I'm really working hard to try to like start infusing y'all and to my regular vernacular. So and sweet tea. I mean there's just so many things out here there are so much better, like sweet tea, Fried Chicken, collared Greens. I had never had that before I came out to Atlanta, or Grit I didn't even know that's I didn't even know that existed. You know, it's like this is a breakfast food that I was unaware of. My goodness, it's not crazy, yeah, yeah, it is. And so I'm actually just fallen in love with Atlanta and the cool thing about Atlanta is just how it is just ever changing. It's changed. It feels like it's a different city every year. That ear. So I that's it's really exciting to me. So I started coaching alongside Kim and just through the church, through connection of the church. I wasn't asposed to a pastor of the church and then she was attending and we just got into a conversation. We were talking about, you know, helping people become the most vibrant versions of themselves, and I just begin to realize, like what you're talking about is my favorite thing about pasturing, it's my favorite thing about life, and I just really, really really want to kind of run with you because it is what it excites me the most, you know, walking someone, partnering with someone...

...into becoming the fullest version of themselves, helping someone accomplish the goals that are deep inside them really just brings life to me. And so it's just kind of through a random connection and then a good conversation that I walked into, to working alongside Kim with the whiteboard room. Yeah, well, it sounds like you are natural fit for that, going from posturing to coaching. Can you tell me a little bit about how you served the White Board Room. Now is an associate coach? Yeah, totally. So. As an associate coach I do all of the same things that Kim does. However, I tend to work more with men and then also with couples that are looking to kind of build their brand or their company. I run ideation sessions, which is basically a time where I can help facilitate and extract everything that's going on in a person's mind. It sounds a lot cooler than it is. It sounds like inception, but really, I mean we work predominantly with creative entrepreneurs and you know, one of the things that always happens with people that have just an excitement and in the creative kind of motive is that they can generate all of these ideas and usually what happens is they process these ideas all the way into anxiety, which then stops them from really ever doing any of those ideas right. And it's like you're looking, you're looking across the table at some of the most talented people and you're like, if you would just choose one of these ideas, you would you would kill it, like you would incredible. So we sit down and, over the course of two to four hours, begin to whiteboard out, extract out all of these ideas, add language to it and then begin to produce next steps or through some question answering, I really can refine whether or not this idea is something that's the individual wants to even walk down. The other thing that that I do predominantly is working people through a mission and vision statement that then we filter out their next twelve months and with goals and accountability, and then I partner with them every month or quarter or even just sometimes every year just to kind of check in and say, Hey, this is the language that you used to define yourself and these are the goals in which but we're produced through this new filter that you have. How are you doing actually living out those goals? And that's really that's really what what we do at the whiteboard room and what I do as a coach. The main difference for me is that I work predominantly with men and couples. Gotcha. Well, working as a coach, you know, you mentioned, you build up people to be the best versions of themselves. So you're working on others to be their best, but you also get to see firsthand how this personal development and helping curate these ideas can really impact an organization for the better. So, with all of that, why would you say that personal development is so critical to the success of an organization? Yeah, I mean it's multi faceted, but I would say that one of the reasons why personal developed, by why personal development is essential, is that it requires honest and you know, when you're working with creative entrepreneurs, the...

...fact is that a lot of the markets are over saturated, you know, with social media and just with even like twitter, right, like everyone's doing everything and you can do one google search, right, you could look up I'm a painter in Atlanta, and all of a sudden thousands of painters in Atlanta come up and it can be really intimidating. But what I've found is that when a company or an individual or a brand pursues personal development, they have to be honest and it's that honesty that actually connects them into an authentic expression of themselves, and so I think it allows for an artist or a photographer or any sort of person to go I now know an honest version of me, which means my external efforts and what I've put my hands to are actually an authentic expression of what's on the inside, and that's just so important. And the other thing reason why I think that personal development is is essential is that, whether we like it or not, if we don't take time to evaluate our internal insecurities, they will be expressed through any sort of external effort. And and so if we aren't dealing with the stuff that we're feeling on the inside, your coworkers are going to experience in that insecurity and M in it and it can really destroy the culture. It can really it turns a great environment into a stubtle, passive, aggressive competition to try to get validation for what you're insecure about on the inside. And then, finally, I think that personal development, as you start saying, I'm becoming a more holistic version of myself, you begin to function with a deep sense of alignment that gives you a comfort to that, for lack of better word, your soul, your inner person, the person that you're having that conversation with as your drinking coffee on the way to work, you know and and that deep sense of alignment, I think, brings a rest that most of us deeply crave as we're pursuing and putting effort into the day. HMM, so sounds like a lot of what you do. I mean you're you're helping people find their purpose. You're helping them get to know themselves and what really drives them so they can create in a way that's going to or supporting that purpose. Absolutely really coming down to why am I doing what I'm doing right? That's amazing. I love that. So earlier you're talking about how you follow up with the people that you work with like a year later or however, however time maybe. Do you have any examples or stories of companies who did or did not invest in personal development and the outcome of that? Yeah, I do. Unfortunately, it's hard when we talk about the companies that don't invest in personal development, you know what begins to happen. I would give one example, as I was working with a gentleman and he used language of I...

...really I want to prioritize my personal development. I might myself, but he really begin to function with an ego fixation that I need to avoid failure, I need to ensure that the people around me see me as successful and were investing in and you know, we would bring this up. We would talk about it, but he began to work himself in to just a level of exhaustion in which he began to compromise some of these deep morals that he claimed to have, and it eventually led to him losing his position within his company. And that that was really hard to see and it was really frustrating because it's like you need to be honest with yourself, and hard, I mean this stuff takes time and it's not like you just get to go, Oh, I'm aware now that I'm afraid of failure and now I'm just not going to do that anymore. You know. Yeah, so it's hard, especially when you're went like in this scenario, I was stepping in in the middle of this person's career, not at the beginning or the development of their company. So with that, you know, it's hard to navigate a proper course, and not just I mean if you start off right, you're going to finish right. If you're trying to course correct, it takes time and you got vocation now that. On the other hand, I was working with another gentleman who, it runs a small photograp fee company and as he begin to realize that his goals weren't necessarily associated with making more profit. They were about actually connecting with people. He began to choose the right clients to work with. He enjoyed his job more and then his clients would actually recommend them and he would he gained more. He actually achieved his goal of having a greater profit because he was able to pick the correct clients. Is Key. Enjoyed his job so always more fun to work with, and they would begin to just use MPs, the net promoter score. They would begin to just bring in more and more people to him because they enjoyed working with them as much as he enjoyed working with them. And it's fun because you know, he'll tell me like, oh man, it was great I did this person's wedding and then we're actually going to go out and go to this restaurant together and have a good time. They're actually friends now, you know. And so he doesn't even have to work or worry about whether or not he's going to do their anniversary photos right or their Christmas cards. He already knows that. That's locked in because he's a quality relationship because for him he's realized that one of the things that that is his purpose is to deeply connect with people and I just think that's so important because when you find your purpose, your outcome actually is fulfilling. And Yeah, it's unfortunate when we get off track from that. HMM. That's got to be one of the hardest things for you as a coach, just saying when things don't pan out or people don't put the invest the time or have the patients to really follow through, especially in those situations where kind of teaching an old dog new tricks, and imagine that's incredibly frustrating sometimes, absolutely, and I'll tell you this. I mean I'm...

...a I'm a young guy, and so it takes a level of humility to even listen to me right and and I always appreciate it. The hard thing is this is as a coach, as a as a pastor, as a partner, as just a friend, we're only going to go as far as you're willing to be honest. And you know, the thing that makes personal development so difficult is it it really does require you to be honest at a level that most of us don't function in. I think it is very much possible to have short term success without being honest at all, whether you're going to have a long term, sustainable joy in your life. I don't know if that's possible. And so, yeah, it is really hard to go hey, let's be patient through this process. Yes, sometimes, being honest feels like ripping off a bandaid, but I promise you that if we clean out the wound or we really dive into this, we're going to be healthier versions of ourselves and we're going to produce a better quality product. Yeah, so I know it a lot of hopefully not a lot, but I know at many companies people might feel like they might see a conference that they want to go to or panel that might really benefit them and their work, and sometimes they might feel like it's pulling teeth trying to get their organization to let them have the day to go to a conference or whatever the case may be. What would you say is the biggest misconception companies have with personal development and why they might might struggle to let you go for a day to a conference or a panel or whatever the case may be? I think the biggest fear is that if you press pause on a movie, you won't finish the movie, and I think sometimes in personal development, you know you press pause on the day and then what if I don't have a return on investment? And it comes down to to a lack of trust in the process. And usually, unfortunately in this this may come across arrogant and I don't want to do that in any way, but but oftentimes if a higher up doesn't value personal development, it means they don't value it himself and that becomes a reflection in and of itself and that's a difficult place to be in and I feel bad for a person that finds themself in that situation. I think one of the other misconception is that personal develop requires only a critical voice or a negative tone of deconstruction. I always say this way if I'm trying to pitch. Hey, let's walk this out together. I'm going to bring up some things that are painful, because pain or discomfort can be a warning sign of maybe some things that aren't really attached to what you're passionate about. But also want it to reveal the places in your life where you feel the most alive. You know, like if you put your hand on a stove right it turns, and that's not a prop the problem isn't the the burning of your hand. The problem is I got to take my hand off or my whole hand, you going to be useless. Right, right. Think it's just I think it's the same way when you're like, man, this conversation brought something out of me, or when I painted this painting, it was like I came alive and I want to find I don't want to just search around for all the negative, critical things that your company's doing wrong. I want to find...

...the places where your company is killing it, where you're loving life, where you feel like this is the most vibrant version of me. And so I think sometimes the leaders are hesitant because they think that the voices are going to be very critical, that it's going to actually cause a disconnect between the employee and the manager or the leader, and I just believe that's not true. And if and if it's really a worthwhile conference, then it really will deposit something in the individual that, when expressed, will bring a huge return on investment, whether it's profitability or just you're better to work with, you know, and that's a right. That's a huge thing. You know, cultures become kind of this word that everyone throws around right now, but it really truly is something where it's a culture shifter, when when someone becomes more holistically healthy and they're not functioning out of insecurity. So I think, yeah, I mean the misconception is that if you press pause, the people are going to never re engage and I just think that's so untrue. I know that I am more likely to engage with a new passion when I am reminded of who I am, and I just I I see it all the time. And so send people to conferences. You know, people the conferences, then people to counseling, Sin People to things that will develop them as a person and you will see your business drive. Is there anything for companies who might be on the fence about investing in personal development for their teams or they're scared about getting that they won't get their Roi? Is there any advice that you give them to be able to reassure them that, like, yeah, this might be a process, but it really is worth it. Yeah, my first bit of advice would be start with yourself. It really is true. It's not just the cliche statement that it is top down. So start working on yourself and see the return of investment in your family, in your friend group, in and in your company and start small, like you know. One of the things I talk all the time about is don't think that everything you do has to be an initial home run, like you're not. You don't need to hit it out of the part. You don't need to be massive, you don't need to be big. You know, I talked to a lot of guys and they're like, you know, Mitch, I want to increase my profits by this much, and I go, Hey, let's just let's just start working a little bit slower, Bud, like you know, you because then you're going to feel a massive sense of disappointment when you're like, I'm going to completely change everything about myself. It's like, no, no, it takes cycles of twenty one days to add a new habit. Don't try to add four hundred new habits in a month, you know. And it's like the guy that wants to go and go ahead of the gym and then, you know, eat there every single day and he's trying to wake up at five van and he's trying to eat this new diet and he's trying to, you know, be more social. It's like you're going to crumble, man. You got to go slow, incremental change is okay, and when it comes to working with yourself, let's start small. It doesn't mean you have to send everyone in your team to a conference. It might mean bringing someone into have a positive conversation. It might mean changing how you structure staff meetings. What if, once a month, you begin to...

...dialog through in with a deep sense of honesty, how people are actually doing, what people actually care about? What if, when you walk through your office, you knew what the deep passion of this the single mother of to like, really deeply felt? What if you knew that she loved painting and that that she loves expressing herself and that she wanted to express herself through through a through creativity, and then you allowed her to be the person that's the spokesperson for some sort of new creative venture that you need to do. Right. Or they become your digital design person and you didn't even know that they like that. Right. Or you realize that, hey, you know, Tony in the corner has as a very low emotional vocabulary, right, you know is hungry, angry and hungry. He's not even an emotion. Right. So I think that probably shows you a little bit about me, right like angry, sad, happy, but he's not really articulating what he really feels and so he always feels trapped it staff meetings because he doesn't know what to do right. And so you begin to get like of you prioritize and intentional dialog and then you start making small in criminal change is and then as you start to see the return in that, then you might discover hey, maybe a maybe a group trip to a conference, maybe sending these few people to a conference would be something that would dramatically benefit. So let's start small and start with yourself, and I'm just a firm believer, and dive in. Don't be hesitant. I think the worst thing you can do is say you're going to actually care about something and then give fifty percent of your effort into it. You're lying to yourself and that's a problem and you're not going to see a return on investment unless you risk it, any risk with everything you have right. You've mentioned company culture a lot and how personal development can have an effect on company culture. So do you have any examples of or stories of time that one person and their personal development really trickled into the rest of the company culture? Socially, the leaders in particular, because I feel like it's top down a lot. Culture tends to be talked down. So totally, totally. So I was working with the team and the there was a leader that was managing another subset of people, and so it was a team of managers essentially, and this female had a deep insecurity that if there was no recognition, that she would be insignificant. Now, the model of the company was really a like a lead from behind, so her job was to platform her team, which means that she wasn't always getting the recognition outside of some quarterly meetings with her boss, right. And so as we begin to work together, I begin to just really challenge her and say, you are trying to our boster and environment where you're getting recognition, but this job isn't doing that for you. And what you need to realize is that this job is something that you do love, but you need to understand that if you function out of insecurity, you're going to actually take it out on your people, right, you're going to take it out when you don't feel recognized,...

...you're going to not feel special, and then what you're going to do is you're going to try to force yourself to the front, which actually takes away from the exact job that you have. And once she began to kind of realize like, Oh man, I am actually I have validation because of the invitation to manage these people, and it's a constant flow of validation from my boss. I don't need to begin to strive for more validation because he thinks that I'm the right person for this job, will begin to happen. was is now that she felt like she was noticed and seen, she was able to empower her team in a way that she wasn't before, and it was really great, because what begin to shift in her team was they felt special, they felt like they were empowered and equipped in a way that they weren't before. And what the beautiful thing is is then they begin to say how significant her voice was in their life. And so she did inevitably receive some of that validation and an encouragement that she was looking for. But it was once she's made that switch from trying to always is prove herself to feeling like, you know what, the fact that I have this job is prooven of itself that I'm the right person. Another quick story is just off that last statement. A lot of times when I'm working with people, I go did you hire you or did your boss hire you? Well, well, my boss hired me. Right. So they are trusting in them selves that you are the right person for the job. So I need you to stop trying to deconstruct every attitude and decision that you make during the day as if you aren't qualified for this job. They chose you and at the end of the day, let's even say that you're not qualified for this job, whose fault is that? Yours or the person that hired you? And what you begin to see is it's like you have this weight on your shoulders that says, I got to make sure I prove it on the right guy, the right guy, or the right girl, the right girl, you know, and it's right. No, you were invited into this and that's your validation and we've given you a task and that's an and so we believe that you can accomplish that. So once you break off the weight of feeling insecure having to prove yourself, you're liberated to put effort into the things that you're that you're asked to do. Right. So, yeah, it's drastically changes the culture because you know, like I said earlier, it really doesn't make you more fun to work with. You produce a better product and at the end of the day, you really do have a rest of I know that I'm doing the right things for the right motivation and there's this alignment between your heart and your head and your hands, and once that happened, it's like you're just free, and that's kind of the goal. You know, you're holistically free from some of this stuff that we're putting on ourselves. Right, and I really like the point you made. I think that leaders need to remember that they have a voice at the table and that they were put there for a reason. That just needs to be a constant thing to remember. Yeah, so you said that you moved from Seattle to Atlanta because the square church.

So you're also an associate pastor at the square church in Atlanta and you work a lot with nonprofits as well. So I'm wondering how can organizations where funds are tighter or or limited, how can they invest in personal development for their team members? Yeah, you know, I would say that I would start with the leader. When I work with with nonprofits, what I do is I'll start with you know, if I'm working with another church, for instance, or I'm working with my five, hundred, one, c three that you know is doing it like more service based or missions based type of work, I want to start with their leader and say, let's start you on a path of asking hard questions, that you have to be honest, and once you get comfortable being honest and not feeling like you have to defend yourself all the time, then what would it look like for you to begin to ask those questions to your team? And so I always just say, like, you don't need to, if your budget is tight, look up a hard question. What do I feel like I'm lacking? And really begin to let that resonate in you and go I feel like I'm lacking applause. You know, I feel like I'm lacking recognition. And do you know how it's incredible how that simple question when asked in a staff meeting and then you have the person that's the highest up right, because the worst thing you could do, okay, the worst thing you could do is have a CEO ask this question and then not answer it and then make everyone insecure about their answers is they're going to get fired right. So it has to start from the top when it comes to do like when it comes to working within a budget and trying of taking this on yourself, start from the top and going. You know what, I really fear. Fear this and this is where I met and this is something that I'm trying to change and therefore this is what I'm going to do and you'll start to see teams open up. And I think it starts, I mean really one hard question at the end of a staff meeting or at the beginning of a staff meeting, an email that the just says this is the thought of the week. What would it look like? You know, I think one of the things that you can really do is, as a leader, when you're on a budget, to go, okay, you're trying to pursue a more holistic team, a a healthier team. What would it look like every day to try to spark curiosity is there's some their statistic that says that it's up to almost seventy to eighty percent of people don't trust we have. We have a work we're culture that is constantly testing and not trusting right, and so what that means is you are actually you're no longer tempted by doubt. You have to be tempted to believe. So what would it look like if you begin to spark curiosity in your people? Will would look like if you get a spark curiosity and why this matters to your people? I think that's the starting point for any company that's having a budget that is restricted. HMM and yeah, man, invite outside voices that love you and love your people and and bring them into talk. I mean it, having people on the outside come in is not expensive. I mean, unless there are some people that I know that you could bring in and they're pretty expensive, of course, but you know, like but bringing in, bringing in a guy from a company that you are just friends with,...

...the guys that you golf with or the girls that you're going out and going out to the restaurant with, like there's there's voices in your life, for the most part, that are worth hearing and they can offer a challenge that is far enough away from your voice to word doesn't seem like you're being critical on or team. I think there's a lot of really great tools, starting with honesty, though, the simplest thing. Find ways to get honest honesty is going to produce intimacy. Intimacy between, like the team is going to really create that synergy that we all want. You really got to trust each other and that only is fostered in honesty. So, yeah, start with honesty and you're going to you're going to see a team thrive. Yeah, I think that's very important. I know that some organizations one of their greatest challenges with personal moment might be funds. But in your coaching what are some other big challenges you see leaders dealing with today? Yeah, I mean one of the biggest problems is a I mean like the biggest challenge with this whole thing is a deep fear that if I'm honest, I will disqualify myself. And so leaders, right, you've created this business, you've created this team or the structure, or you've put your hard work into it and then you're going to go reevaluate your motivations and you're afraid that you you know, might have done this out of false motivations or that you know that that if you're honest, it's going to stop you from accomplishing your goals or, if you take a break and take a breath, that you're not going to be able to continue at the same intensity. Now I'm all for boundaries. I think sometimes when we talk about personal development, I just my coaching style is this like we're going to work to your capacity and we're going to put hard work in. You know what I'm saying? It's not like, Oh, we need to shut down all the time because, you know, because this book says that this is what a good boundary is. I think what we got to do, you know, what I try to do with most leaders is figure out their capacity and then work as hard as you can. And but I think at the same time, if you're going to put effort into personal development, sometimes you do have to take a breath and realize that you're human, right. I think think that's a big challenge that people think that, you know, if I begin the prioritize myself, it'll be at the expense of my company, as if your company, your brand, your your new venture, isn't so interwoven with who you are as a person to begin with. You know, it is an extension of who you are as a person. I mean, I don't want to be want here, but if you're a liar, then then there's it's some point intrinsically, there's there's a connection that your company is not authentic because you, you're about me, is a lie, you know, and your your story of growth is a lie, and and that that makes you, that makes your company in some ways fraudulent. You know, if you are deeply insecure as a person, which is not a problem, it can it is something that we can all work on. I mean, as someone that is struggled with deep insecurities, something that you work on. But if you allow insecurities to write your story, so you avoid taking risks, your company's not going to take risks. And...

...so the fear is that taking time for yourself is going to take away time for your company, and all I would say is that's absolutely not true. I think the other fear is that you will lose respect if you get honest. And I'll tell you this, I have not once walked a person or a company through this process where their team respected them less as they were honest and they were really honest. I mean there's sometimes where you can see some fraudulent like false humility type statements of like this is my struggle, and you're like that's not your struggle. We all know what your struggle is going to be. Hang out with you the water cooler. You know, like but, but you're going to lose credibility, and I just would say no, I think authenticity is a is craved in our generation and if you are working with millennials or generation Z, you know the the desire to to connected with something authentic. Right in a metamodern culture. We have a culture that wants to have an experienced truth and experienced hope and and that simply comes through authenticity and honestly produces that. And you know you're not going to lose credibility when you start saying hey, you know, I'm tired, I'm afraid. You don't need to be the caught like I think there was a time when we needed leaders that were fearless and lied about what they felt on the inside. I think now the culture is kind of shifted, and I'm even learning this in my own life, of being like, it's actually better for me to go him tired and I'm going to work as hard as I can. You know, I'm going to work as hard as I can, but you got to understand that I'm a little bit tired right now. And I'm feeling a little bit beaten up, and I found that my team comes around me now when I'm honest. I was so afraid that if I admitted that I'm tired or I'm hurting or that there's some things going on in my personal life that are difficult, that my team would go then you're unfit to lead. But that's not the truth, especially in today. Yeah, yeah, I think vulnerability definitely humanizes leaders and I think teams want to see that, to have a vulnerability, to be honest about here are my flaws here or here's what I'm dealing with. Yeah, so I think that's really important. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, well, much. Is there anything that I've didn't ask you that you like to touch on that I might have missed? I think that that it's so important, especially when you're working in a dynamic of a team or a couple or even just an individual, that one of the things I've realized is that eat. Who Do you feel like you're competing with? And competition is good. I don't think competition is bad. I love competition, but insecurity has a way of taking the benefits of competition and making it a burden and your team will be held down if you have an insecurity that's pushing you into a competition with the people that you're supposedly working with and that that can be devastating and I just think it's so important. The end of the day, what do I feel like I'm missing? Who Do I feel like I'm competing against? Why do I feel the need I need to compete? These are kind of questions you being ask yourself and then...

...you can kind of step into some development within your own just kind of daily walk. You know, I think I think it's great. What would happen if you turn the radio off for five minutes? You're drinking your coffee or you're sitting in line at starbucks and you can ask yourself, what do I need to do? Like, what do I feel like I need to do today? And is it as that out of a fear? Is that out of an avoidance and if so, what does that say about how I see myself? You just walk through that and I think then find a find an ally, a close friend, a coach, a partner, someone that you trust. So you maybe call up your mom and just say that out loud and you know, neural pathways are reconstructed and changed through the actual verbalizing these new thoughts and and you can do that in your car and it's just a powerful thing to begin walking out. That's my little side, dadget that's a great side side to fret. You share it well, Mitch. Thank you so much for being here today and for sharing your wisdom with us. I know I've gotten a lot out of it. I know our listener as well as well. Not only can they begin investing in themselves, but they can encourage their team and team members and organizations to do the same. So that's we're just so grateful that you came on speak of Usterday, man Hayley. It's been wonderful. It's been really fun. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much, mid and a huge thank you to our listeners for tuning in to our podcast today. You can learn more about the white board room by visiting www dot roomcom and you can hear insights from its founder, Kim Butler, on leader cast now. Again, thank you for listening and please go ahead and share and be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Will see you back here soon for another episode of the leader cast podcast. Leader cast now is an online resource for your leadership development. Get the solutions to your leadership challenges on any device at the moment you need it. To learn more, go to now dot leader castcom. Thanks for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.

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