The Leadercast Podcast
The Leadercast Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

64. Avoiding the Micromanaging Mistake


Let’s just debunk the idea that anyone is “born” a leader and recognize that leadership grows out of our trustworthiness, values, behaviors, and goals.

What’s one of the best indicators? Taking joy in others’ success.

In this episode, we interview Scott Miller, former EVP of Franklin Covey, about how remote work should permanently shift our mindset about a leader’s job.

What we talked about:

- Checking in, not checking on

- Culture, relationships, and what an org’s greatest asset really is

- Top 3 leadership competencies

- What humility really means and why it is so challenging

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

- Scott wrote Everyone Deserves a Great Manager and Management Mess to Leadership Success

- Scott’s podcast is On Leadership

Check out the full podcast with Scott Miller by clicking here.

If you don’t use Apple Podcasts as your audio player, you can also find every episode at this link.

This is the leader cast podcast, helping you become a leader worth following. Hello, listeners, welcome to the leader cast podcast. I am your host, Angie aarons, and on this episode we're going to get a little messy. Managing people isn't always easy. When it does get messy, we, as leaders need to know how to challenge ourselves and shift to success. How does the leader do that? Where do we even begin? Well, we are here today to help you with that insight. Our guest today, Scott Jeffrey Miller, serves Franklin cobby as a senior adviser of thought leadership initiatives. Scott host multiple PODCASTS, including Franklin cobbies, on leadership and great life, great career. Additionally, Scott is the author of the Multi Week Amazon number one new release management mess to leadership success, thirty challenges to become the leader you would follow. Scott authors a weekly leadership column for inkcom and as a frequent contributor for thrive global. Previously, Scott worked for the Disney Development Company, having grown up in central Florida and currently lives in Salt Lake City, Utah, with his wife and three sons. However, before we get a little messy. Let's talk about celebrations. Many leaders and teams are celebrating the holidays in a variety of ways. In leader casts wants to be part of the celebration. If you're looking to give the gift of leadership to your team or to anyone you want to help become a lead, are worth following, considering investing in them with leader gasts now. Listen why and will be back to get started. Leader Gusts now is an online resource for your leadership development. Get the solutions to your leadership challenges on any device at the moment you need it. To learn more, go to now dot leader castcom. Scott, welcome to the leader cast podcast. We truly appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Angie, it's my pleasure. Thank you for the platform, of course. I just want to start right off the gate. Who is a leader? Who can be a leader? Who should be a leader? You know I'm asked this question a lot. Are People born leaders or do they become leaders? Well, there's no question. No one is born a leader. I that's just a great phrase to deep bunk out of the gate, but I think I'll tell you. oftentimes too many people think they should lead people with. In fact they shouldn't. Not everyone should be a leader of people. Might everyone should be a commercial airline pilot or an anesthesiologist, me first among them. I think it's really valuable for people to understand what is leading people really all about. We'll talk about that today, I'm sure, and some of our questions, but I think there's an important pivot that needs to happen inside organizations, both from people choosing to become leaders of people, but also those who are recruiting them, because too often companies lure people into leadership positions and don't lead them. Men, we often promote our individual producers. You know, the best salesperson, the most creative digital designer, the most effective dental high genis to leave the teams, when rarely what makes you the best individual contributor does a correlate to becoming a leader of people. I think people who lead others need to be abundant. They need to take great joy and pleasure in the success of those around them. They need to be patient, they need to be aware that their job is to achieve results with and through other people. And if you don't enjoy achieving results with and through other people than you should not be a leader of people. Let's to dive into that a little bit more, because you talk about leading other people and what that purpose is as a leader. Look at your own journey. who had stood out to you? I know you worked at Disney, you worked in Governor Rols and now you're at Franklin cobby. WHO has really helped breathe into you as a leader? Why? I think every leader...

I've had, I have been most fortunate to have worked for generally great leaders. There's some, some exceptions, I'm fact, some pop would say I was an exception on their path too. Really, I have had a series of leaders that typically believed in me more at the time that I believed in myself. Leaders that preforgave me, that didn't just forgive me, they pre forgave me. They knew I was going to mistakes, they knew I was going to say and do dumb, idiotic, recredible things, but yet they had a vision for me that was bigger than the vision for myself. So I think, Gosh, I think Bob, David, Chuck, Gary, step on, deb I mean on and on and on right. I mean there's Larry, so many people that in my career at Disney, at the Franklin Covey Company, everyone has contributed positively. Even if it was negative, it's still contributed positively to be becoming a better leader. It might have been deciding I don't want to do what they did and through their example, through their mistake, I took great insight and lessons from because the fact of the matter is, Angie, we learn more from our messes than we do from our successes. When, as a leader, when you own your mess, you make it safe for others to own there. You make it safe for others to learn from your messes, and then that's a teaching gift that leaders can give their own teams. And you brought it up messy. We're going to we're going to get messy in this episode, so let's talk a little bit about that. How has two thousand and twenty affected you and your leadership style and the mess of the world we're in right now? We'll probably like it. Has Everybody right? I mean the the fundamental nature of work has shifted, in many cases unrecognizably, but our leadership style and strategely typically hasn't. I'd say the big insight that I've had to come to understand and I draw from a second book that I coauthored. It became a Wall Street Journal best seller. It's called everyone deserves a great manager, the six critical practices for leading a team. One of those practices is about how do you develop one on one meetings with your team members virtually and the big concept there is when you're in this virtual leadership environment, I think you need to make a paradigm shift, a mindset shift. Understand your job is not to check on. Your job is rather to check in, and that's subtle, but I think it's profound. People know when you're checking on them and they feel when you're checking in with them. So you know better, listening, better, empathy again, owning your mess and recognizing that you too are distracted. You Two are burnt out. You two are working nonstop, ten feet from your bed. You know, bedroom all day long. But as a leader, if you're leading a team in a virtual environment, or perhaps a semi virtual environment, or what it would at, whatever it is in this pandemic, absolutely have to slow down, become more patient, recognize that relationships are your organization's most valuable asset. This this this idea that people are a company's most thybal ascent. That's bunk. People are not an organization's most thybal asset. It is the re lationships between those people's how Angie and Scott get along, complement each other, forgive each other. I mentioned this phrase earlier. preforgive each other because our relationship together forms our culture. And I'd argue Ange after thirty years in the leadership business, your culture is the only competitive advantage you have, because everyone is and can and will steal everything else from you. Your patents, your copyrights, your logos, your supply chain, your pricing, your go to market strategy, your packaging, I mean everything cannon is...

...being stolen from you. Your culture is your ultimate competitive advantage and we have seen that point. Culture and emotional intelligence skyrocket this year. It is the definitely the most requested thing we get as a leadership company. How can I be more emotionally intelligent? How can I work with my culture? How do I keep my culture? And a lot of people are studying, they're reading their books, they're doing whatever they can. You have written your own books, right, so people are taking in all this knowledge, but reading is not enough. How do you read and apply what what do you advise people to do once they kind of get that information? How do they push that back out? Well, there's lots of ways, right, depending upon what your preference and modality is. You know a lot of people as who, as you have identified, love and listen to podcast. A lot of people like to read or like to listen to books on audio. I say what one of the Chinese said. I I use is when I read a leadership book, which I've read literally thousands of them. As you may know, I'm privileged to host what is the world's largest subscribe to leadership podcast globally, goes to seven million each week and every week I learned something new. But a lot of these books and Gee, I'll I'll bite size them. I don't like reading books in two days. I don't cram books. I like to read a book, read a chapter and sit it down and take some notes as okay, so what did I learn from this chapter that I could do better, that I'm not doing at all, but that I disagree with? And why do I disagree? I like to read books and chunks. I just I'm a slow reader. First of all, I'm a distracted reader, reader, I'm easily distracted. I have three sons and I'm married and have a variety of projects going on. So I recognize what my own limitations are and I tend to chunk things out. Okay, so there's an insight. I'm just going to stop and put the book down. I'm going to work on implementing that principle into my life this week. I think all of us are on overwhelm, right. I mean terms of the number of newspapers, print and digital, and magazines, print and digital and virtual or live conferences and podcast and webcast and webinars and you name it. We can't get on overload. Maybe pick someone whose style you like a lot or whose challenges resonate with your own challenges. Maybe double down on that person versus water skiing across, you know, ten, fifteen different mediums, where it all just gets lost in your head and none of your behaviors really change. And like you, I've read tons of leadership books, right and as I get them, I read them and I got to put I have two different bookshlves the bookshelf of what am I going to do with these books after and maybe they didn't speak to me, and then I'm going to keep these because they are flagged by my post it notes and I need to revisit them. I have a copy of your book right here in my hand. But wait, which self? Which Shelf is it on? It is on the good shot. It okay, good, yes, because you, you wrote it just like how you like to digest books. Right. It is bite chunks and I realized when I was reading it it's slowed me down in my processing and I don't know if that was intentional or not on your hand, but it completely did. I had a hard time and I like to plow through books, but I had a pause and be like, okay, digest this, what am I doing? And so I want to talk a little bit about your book, Management Mess to leaderships success, and how a leader can overcome all these challenges that you have for us to become a better leader, when that they would want to follow themselves. I have to start off with my curiosity of you. Out of all the challenges, what are you most passionate about, and why all thirty? The fact of the matter is, I what this book called Management Mess to leadership success. Thirty challenges to become the leader you would follow. And what I did, and she was I over the course of, you know, Franklin cuffy's forty years in business, we've learned a few things, you would expect, hope, about what it means to become a leadership success. So I wrote a story, but each one of...

...them typically something I'd screwed up, said something outrageously wrong or done something, you know, not illegal or an ethical but sometimes close. And I learned a lot from him. I think the biggest of the challenges, which actually, ironically, I'm actually pretty good at, is challenge twelve, and that is lead difficult conversations. I would argue that of the top three leadership competencies I think people need, number one is recruit and retain talent smarter, more talented than you are. Number three is vulnerability. Number two is giving people feedback on their blind spots. This is a leadership imperative that if you're not willing, as a leader of people, to move outside your comfort zone, to discuss the UNDISCUSSABLES, to summon the courage and the diplomacy, the consideration a balance of the two of those, to take people aside that report to you and set them down and intervene, disrupt selfdefeating behaviors that are ruining their brand, the reputation, their ability to thrive inside, not as your organization, but their next five jobs as well, then step down. It is incumbent on every leader to summon the courage to take on the UNDISCUS gustible's one. It's the biggest gift you can give the people who work for you, because everyone's got blind spots. Secondly, if you don't do it, then you will lose the respect of your high performers for neglecting the necessity of taking on these problems. It's what's the one that I think is the most difficult for most leaders, and it's also the one of the thirty challenges that will have the biggest impact on your culture, but also the biggest impact on that individual who may continue these unknown selfdefeating behaviors because now listen carefully, because they never had a leader who loved them enough to risk not being liked. I think that's important because as a leader, your job is to help people continue to improve their skills, their self awareness, their contribution, their brand, and oftentimes these people continue in their S, s, s and s, to repeat these selfdefeating behaviors because they never had a leader who loved them enough to risk not being liked by giving that person high courage feedback. I'm passionate about this one, you can tell. Yeah, absolutely, and I was going to ask what's artist, but I think people struggle with difficult conversations. No one walks into a room and it is like, all right, we're we're going to challenge us that, it's going to be amazing. I mean that's why they're difficult conversations. With that, what's what do you think is the easiest challenge? And out of the thirty that you see people who can just really charge at it and they overcome it fast. What might be an easier one to adapt to? Well, I think the the one that's the most intuitive is challenged ten make time for relationships. Mean, we mentioned that, right, is that as a leader, your job is to model and build relationships amongst your team, and so I think that was probably the most inherently sensible one. I think it's a challenge for some ennge, because a lot of us have what Dr Cuvey, who was, of course, the author of the Siminal Book, the Seven Habits of highly effective people, sliped forty million copies, right. I mean it's the book upon which our company has based their global brand. A lot of people have an efficient mindset versus an effective mindset. You know, with people you cannot be efficient, you cannot be productive. With relationships you have to move out of the same mindset you might use to wash your car or mow your lawn or rake your leads...

...or take your garbage cans out or load the dishwasher. Those things can be done efficiently. With people. Slow is fast and fast is slow. So I think intuitively relationships is the easiest to grasp, but it isn't always the easiest to employ. That makes sense, as I know it's people kind of struggle through the adaptation of being an introvert or an extrovert, and I think this pandemic has a relation shift to People's paradigm and how they see themselves in relationships. There it's really fascinating to watch the culture of people kind of go through that step together. I do want to like really break it down the book a little bit because, as I mentioned, you do it in chunks. So it's chunk of learning, which we know is good for adult learning in general, but it's in three parts, leading yourself, leading others and getting results I know, I've had this conversation so many times this year, that you really need to look inward. You need to take care of yourself first before you can take care of others. It's all about how you set yourself up and that balance, which is the whole first part of the book when I look at it in particular. And you know we spoke earlier about Eq being really a high priority leadership. So I want to talk about the humility piece first. Why is humility so important in leadership? Well't that it's so important. I made it the first challenge. Right, number one demonstrate humility. You know, I think it's counterintuitive. I don't know what your leadership journey is like, or has been like, Angie. I'm fifty two, live in Salt Lake City. I've had really two big careers. For years at the Disney Company in twenty five years at the Franklin cupy company, and I was raised back into s in Florida. I'm not sure why or how, but I was raised to believe, I came to believe that leaders are allowed charismatic right, they have big personalities, they cast a big shadow, they take charge. As I look around and looked at who were the governors, and who were the senators, and who were the you know, the the wealthy attorneys in town? I saw big personality, so I kind of took that on. I kind of assimilated to that large, light, louder than life, if you will, personality. In the fact of the matter is is that, you know, great leaders can be very quiet leaders, very humble leaders, but you can still be loud and still be humble. The difference is is that humble leaders are more concerned with what is right than being right, and that had a big shift for me. I had to realize that humility is in fact born out of confidence. Confident people can in fact demonstrate humility, and humility means a lot of things. Right humility means you know. Do you have to be the smartest person in the room? Are you the genius in the room versus the genius maker of others? Do you provide space and air for others to feel smart around you? Do you have to one up every story? Is Your Fish, metaphorically, always larger than everyone's else's? So it's confident people who can be humble leaders. It's arrogant people who are incapable of demonstrating humility. I'll repeat that phrase. Humble leaders are more concerned with what is right than being right. When you ask yourself that question, when you're with your spouse or your children or your boss, your colleagues, and you're doubling down on something because it's you're too embarrassed to admit that perhaps their idea is smarter than yours, you're deep into not demonstrating humility. It's a struggle for me. I'm not a naturally humble person. I don't think I'm an especially arrogant person, but humility does not come easy to me. I like the limelight, I like the spotlight, I like to be in charge, I do like to be right. Those are all sort of natural human characteristics that I had to check them. It's why I made it the first challenge, because it's the biggest challenge of all...

...of them for me, and I appreciated that because I know in my leadership journey I have sometimes wanted to tell my own horn, whatever you want to say, because I was always the youngest person in the room, I was a female in or remote males whatever, and it maybe I felt like I had to sometimes be vocal. And then I realized that wasn't always the case. So it's a really good lesson, I think, as people kind of work through it. The second one I really really enjoyed was carry your own weather. It's essentially, I think, what you're trying to tell us is encouraging us to be consistent in our behaviors and actions. I know that I've always told people, you know, just go with the flow, do what you need to do, be consistent because of the trust factor that goes along to it, and I'm told very often that I am very consistent in my behavior. But I want to know from you, like why is this so important to have team members or be a leader who's consistent, who can really carry your own weather? Well, thanks a lot, angiecause, unlike you, I have never been told that I'm consistent in my bedivior, so I aspire to that now. But use you hit it right in the head. Well, said you'll carry your own weather. Is a metaphor that really Dr Cubby again popularized in a lot of his writings. It's this idea of proactive people. Proactive people carry their own weather. They choose their response to someone else based on their values, not based on other people's Moods or circumstances. So if you think about you know, metaphorically, you're walking around, you're carrying an umbrella and it starts to rain on you and that rain is your boss walks into the office back in the olden days and you know, walks past your desk as and say hello, slams her door and you're convinced you're in trouble getting fired. And never dawned on you you know she might have had an argument with her teenage son that day. Proactive people do not give up their emotional weather. They are, as you say, consistent in their emotions, that they are very deliberate and how they choose to respond to outside stimulize. Someone losing their cool, a customer on a tirade, a colleague having a melt down. In any number of daily situations, all of us are presented with people who carry their own weather. Recognize that, to quote Victor Frankel, right and man search for meaning. You of a choice, that one of the few human freedoms you have in life is you can choose your response to everything. In between the stimulus coming at you and your response to it is a space and in that space you have a choice of how am I going to show up? How do I want to react, how I want to present myself? Is what I'm going to say right now, congruent with what I wished I would have said tomorrow or an hour from now. So my big advice or to people is to ask yourself, how would you describe your own leadership style? When things become stormy, with things become rocky, when things are disrupted, when things are calm? Are they the same? And I have learned to grow in this one, because this is a challenge for me too. I have mature with age not to be lured into people's traps of their hysteria and me meeting them with hysteria. The quickest way to disarm someone is to be unrecognizably calm in a moment of you know, disclm. Is that a word? DISCOLM uncle now and if it is now, yeah, in two thousand and twenty was a year of discolum. So we definitely saw a leaders kind of flexing through that process. I'm having confident disclms not a word, but thank you for covering for as we look towards the second chunk of the book, you know it's about leading others. I don't want to into two themes there that I really thought stirred out. You were really authentic and open in the conversation regarding talking straight I appreciate that you shared those stories and how you worked through it, but not all culture... really value straight talk. Can you first talk about what that is? And if a culture doesn't value this, how would our listeners go about tackling this challenge? Well, in straight talk might mean different things to different people. Right is, you know, straight talk is when you use probably as few words as possible to describe the truth. We spend entirely too much time trying to decipher truth from spin and organizations. There is posturing, there is the politics, there is the culture, there's technically telling the truth but really kind of not. and or perhaps you know what is it? You know, lies of omission in such or withholding information or spinning and posturing. I think not every organization values this. Certainly there's a lot of sensitive cultures that have oddly thrived and having a high spin culture. It's quite common and lots of organizations. It doesn't mean that it's disingenuous by nature or that their outright lies, but I'd argue that very few of US outright lie, but all of us find ourselves victim to our cultures of spin, positioning and, again I'll say, posturing. So the first is to make sure that you're not inflaming and exaggerating. Mean, I'm known. I'm a marketer, right, so I'm known sometimes for a little bit of in indulging in this where, you know, I'll say to the CEO, goodness, you know, people are coming out of the woodwork complaining about the latest offering. You'll say, seriously, how many? Oh my Gosh, too many to count. Really show me. I mean how many? Well, you know three, and you know one was my wife and one was Julia down an accounting so there really was only one. So I have learned how to be really thoughtful and to call things by their right names. If there's one, say one, if there's for, say for, but don't say fourteen, hundred and talking strangers. Really just using the right terms, to call things by their right names. And not every organization values or likes that. Sometimes talking straight is telling the truth, sometimes talking straight is calling people out. Now, of course you can take that too far and we've all met the kind of person that says well, I just, you know, I just tell like it is or I just let the Chits fall where they where they lie, right and and sometimes not everything you think needs to be said. I used to have a one to one correlation of talking straight to everyone about everything, and that can fatigue people, not at you don't need to be the hero or the truth teller in every interaction or conversation. Choose your battles and if you're working for an organization that doesn't value straight talk, I know if you a couple of the vite piece of advice. One is is how you define straight talk, how they define straight talk. Perhaps you're talking too straight. Perhaps you should be more straight in private, that we're quiet reflective in public. I think sometimes you know, he who has the hammer thinks everything is a nail. Your style may not be right in every situation. You know, calibrate right, don't don't hit everything as hard as you feel it needs to be. I think most people can talk straight in any culture if you choose your battles. A lot of people win the battle lose the war. Recognize you want to win the war, whatever that is. Metaphorically. Might be changing your culture, but don't think here go at everything with straight talk, that that can be fatiguing. Yeah, for sure, people need to pick their battles and figure out what's right for them. And I am guilty of saying use your words very often because I want people to use the right word, whether it's as simple as how are you doing today? People are like fine, I'm like no, really, how are we doing today? And...

...that's part of that straight talk piece, right of having that conversation. Yeah, the the other part that I want to talk about is the right people in the right rolls. I have seen companies really struggle through this where they have an amazing person and they kind of keep bouncing them around a little bit trying to find the right role. As a leader, what are some things you can do to really put the right people in the right roles without disenchanting the process, without fear infuriating the process? Like, what are some ways that people can kind of shift that process? Well, if you remember the book, I actually talked about this from both vantage points. I talk about, you know, are you, as a leader, placing people in the right roles, and are you, for that matter, in the right role? I think this requires, as a leader, you to do a couple of things, perhaps differently. It's to recognize that you have a mindset, a belief system, a paradigm about the competency, about the trustworthiness, about the skills, the talents, the fears, the desires of everybody on your team, and that may or may not be accurate. You stantly are, you know, hopefully drawing your paradigms based on facts and not just emotions and opinions, because too often leaders confused. The to write your emotions in your opinions are those and they are valid, but those aren't always facts. So first, recognize that you have a mindset, in a belief system about your people, and it may be out date, outdated. You may not think they are ready for a different role or have skills. So one is check your paradigm. Recognize you might have an old paradigm about someone working for you and, for that matter, is it so deeply intrenched they can't even behave their way out of that paradigm? That's the first piece of advice. Second, check your ego. Say it down with a person and say, you know what, I want to spend some time better understanding kind of what is it you want to do. How are you enjoying your job? Is it working for you? I love to give you some feedback on how it is and isn't perhaps maybe always working for us. Just having a dialog. Declare your intent, open the conversation by saying my intent is to meet with you right now and really understand and also share with you how we think you're doing in this role. Is this right for you? Are you enjoying it? Are you passionate about it? Do we think it's the right role for you? How long should you be in this role? And just listen and then share some of your shut your thoughts as well, because not everyone is always in the right role they be. May uncover, if you listen well and you declare your intent, you may uncover that they hate their job. You may encover they think they're burnt out or they think they're in over their head or they think they should stay for three more years, which may or may not be what you think, but I'll tell you. I think the other most important piece of this is this. If you can organize and align someone's talents and passions with a role that you need, man, you struck, you know, gold. But ask your same question are you in the right role? Are you placing yourself in the right roles? Because you know everyone is going to be disrupted at some point in their career. The question is, is someone going to disrupt you or are you going to proactively disrupt yourself? I love this book from Whitney Johnson called disrupt yourself, and she talks about how the average person typically is in a career now for about three years. On the long far side, the people who are taking control of their careers are the ones that are disrupting themselves right. It goes on the adage of act or be acted upon. One are the one. Are the best things I've done in my career is I always disrupt myself out of a roll, out of a job before I feel the proverbial boot is coming my way. I'm always one or two years ahead of any sense of complacency. I...

...want to be in control of my career. I want to place myself in the right role. I just wrote down that book, so thank you for that tidbit too. I like to think that I am a disruptor and you know, leader casts are. Past event was positive disruption and how disruption people see is so negative, but it doesn't have to be negative. It is definitely a positive in some ways if you look at it right. Want to shift a little to the third part, because I remember Franklincobby and getting my planner at the end or at the beginning of the year, depending how you want to look at it, in a celebration of what I've accomplished that year and what I have to look forward to that year. So you talk about the third chapter, or I I said they'd segment is really about results being driven. So cover goal setting, you celebrate wins, how to make decisions. There's a lot in there, but I'm really curious. Does Franklin Cubby have an organizational celebration for strategic goals when you all achieve them? We do, but like most organizations, I don't think we celebrate enough for no, we're a fairly conservative, serious culture. Less so me right. I'm neither real conservative or very serious. You know that from having read the book, but I like to celebrate. I think too often in companies fun isn't equated with contribution, meaning, meaning, like you know, you need to be serious and you need to focus more on attaining the gold and celebrating the goal and if you celebrate the goal, then you're grand standing or peacocking. You know what, Poppycock. I think that's insane. I do. I think that smart people can have fun. I think that relevant, intelligent people that work hard can celebrate. I Love Q celebrate now. I don't celebrate. Yay, you made it to work on time. Here's our Ruth's Chris Gift Card. Right. I mean to come on. I'm very thoughtful about making sure we spend, at least in my division, that we spend as much time celebrating the achievement of goals as we do setting and accomplishing them. I tell you, I love Confetti, I I love Gotton Candy, I love taking everyone to lunch, I love gathering everyone around with some deliberate notes and calling out the individual contribution of each person, of every person, when we launch a successful project. Now, I have a very high standard. If you read my work and know my history as a chief marketing officer, I have, at some people's perspective, an unrelentingly high level of quality standard. It comes from my four years at Disney. But I also recognize that people have to know if they're winning. People can't be so confused that the goals are so unclear or so muddy that they have to ask you, are we winning? which is why part of being a great leader is creating goals that are very clear. From X to why, by when we're going to increase customer loyalty from forty eight percent to forty nine percent by the end of the third quarter? From X to why, by win and we identified lead and lag measures. We score board them so no one has to ask me, are we winning? It's right there on a poster board or a ban air banner or on a screen saver or on an email right fun engaging score boards where everybody knows are they winning? And when you win, you take the time and you riotously funny outrageously celebrate the win. It doesn't mean you have to spend a hundred thousand dollars and fly everybody to a Ruba, but it does mean you take some time and generally thank everybody for their contribution. I say everybody because in the book I think I mentioned that there was a time that I went around a circle. I thanked everybody for their contribution. I missed someone who was like crucial to the project. I learned later she was greatly offended and she wasn't an easily offended person, and so that taught me a lesson. If you're going to call out the team, call out the team, sit down and take some notes and write down every team member's name...

...and illustrate what was their contribution, or at least a win per person, so you don't accidentally slight someone and then kind of in the process of celebrating, create, you know, a miss. Great Advice. Make sure you cover your basis in a way that you're celebrating the people anyway. You're leading them for the people. So it's not even covering your basis when you look at it, it's more of a just living yourself as a leader. I think that's a great celebration technique. This month that leader cast we're talking about sustainment and legacies and leadership and I know Franklincobby has such a legacy, but I'm curious about Scott Miller, as a leader yourself, what is the ideal legacy that you want to leave? You know, I've never been asked that question, but I think I'm clear on it. I want to continue to be part of elevating vulnerability as a leadership competency, as a parenting competency, as a marital competency, it's a friend, neighbor, you name it. I think too often, for whatever reason, we've become so careful about our brand, which I am to we've bencome so careful about our reputation, which I have to but that recognizing that, like I said when we opened, that as a leader, as a spouse, as a friend, as a colleague, just own your mess. Everybody knows to the closest thirty points what your credit score is. Everybody knows who's gay and WHO's straight. Everybody knows who's struggling and WHO's not. Just own your mess. By the way, I don't mean to equate you know your sexuality or your or your credit score with a mess at all, just you know people know what you're struggling with, the next that you are. So just own it, because when you own your mess, you make it safe for others to own. There's I just passionately believe we learn more from our messes than we do our successes and as a leader, you have a huge gift you can give your people. In addition to giving them feedback on their blind spots, you can gather them around a team, gather around today. Hey, I bought johnba juice for everybody. I want to share with you the biggest mistake I ever made when I was in sales, when I was a sales leader, when I was in marketing, when I was in supply chain, when I was early in my marriage, whatever it is, and share the details, the raw gory details, not gratuitously, but I but share the details so people can understand how to avoid that mess and their lives. I think that's going to be my legacy. I'm now writing ten books Angie in the mess of success series. The first was management mess to leadership success. The second one is marketing mess to brand success. It comes out in May of two thousand and twenty one. The third one comes out of January two thousand and twenty two, is called job best to career success. And I have many other sales, mass communication mess, parenting mess. I'm kind of developing a bit of a chicken soup for the soul in the mess series because I do think that will be my legacy. What a mess I was. Ha. I'm excited to get my hands on those others because I really, really enjoyed the thank you looks so thank you for that. The idea of becoming a leader you would follow really hits home here at leader casts because that ties into our mission, a feeling the world with leaders of worth following. So it's always our final question. We always like to end every episode with this. In your opinion, Scott Miller, what makes the leader worth following? Oh, hands down at their trustworthy. And then let me remind you as a leader you don't get to determine whether or not you are trustworthy. Whenever I speak to audiences I'll say, raise your hand if your trustworthy. Every hand goes up. NOPE, put your hand down. Who Decides if your trustworthy? It's the other person. It's the person who's being led by you, who's following you. So you have to behave yourself into a reputation of being trusted, that you're trusted to deliver on your promises. You're trusted not to overcommit, you're...

...trusted not to gossip, to steal, to have inappropriate relationships in the workplace, to treat people with respect. When you do make a mistake, you are trusted to apologize without any excuses or any attachments, that you are trusted that when someone gives you feedback, you won't deny it, diffused, dispute it or refute it. It's tough. I mean, as a leader, your job is to be a model of everything you want to see in those who are following you. It's why leadership is not for everyone. Not everyone should be a leader of people, but what makes a leader worth following is that they have earned themselves into a reputation of being trusted through their behaviors by others. Scott, thank you for being vulnerable, for being authentic and truly being someone that we all can see following. I appreciate you being here. What an honor. Thank you today for the conversation. I hope you are taking a moment to reflect on situations you have been in that may not have gone the way you wanted. Maybe we're just a touch bit messy and give yourself some grace. It takes time, work and dedication to work on the mess which we spoke about today. I know that you are here listening to this podcast because you want to become a leader you would follow. I hope you have found some insight on your leadership success through our conversation with Scott Miller. If you want to connect with Scott, you can find him on Linkedin and various social media platforms under the username Scott Miller FC. And if you're interested in learning more about the book, Visit Management Scom for more information. As mentioned, leader cast has focused on sustatement and legacy this month. Be sure to check out leader castcom and learn more about our weekly blogs and newsletters, a monthly Webinar and are on demand library and listeners. We know it's been a challenging year for many leaders out there. We hope that you have found something to help you in your leadership journey in these past few months here leader cast. From our family to yours, we wish you good health and safety during the season of our world. Thank you for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. Go be a leader worth following and we'll see you in two thousand and twenty one. According to research from Edelman and Linkedin, almost a sixty percent of decision makers said that thought leadership led them to awarding business to an organization. Sweet fish media helps marketing teams turn their executives into industry thought leaders. Learn more by visiting sweet fish Mediacom. Leader cast. Thanks for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.

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