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The Leadercast Podcast
The Leadercast Podcast

Episode · 1 year ago

Why Businesses Need Rituals w/Erica Keswin

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Rituals are good for business.

What they aren’t: habits, rules, or protocols. So, how do rituals relate to your org?

In this episode, we interview Erica Keswin, speaker, podcast host, and author of Bring Your Human to Work, about why businesses need rituals.

What we talked about:

  • The difference between rules and rituals
  • 3 Ps in the equation of bringing rituals to work
  • Struggles that leaders have to implement rituals
  • Authenticity and how to be human at work

Check out these resources we mentioned during the podcast:

If you don’t use Apple Podcasts as your audio player, you can also find every episode at this link.

This is the leader cast podcast, helping you become a leader worth following. Hello, leaders, and welcome to the leader cast podcast. I am your host, Angie errands in. Today we are going to dive into the world of rituals. When you look at Your Business, your organization, company or team, do you see rituals that you have? Is there anything that, if you took it away, you know it would impact the productivity of the team around you? Our guest today, Erica Keswin, is going to walk us through rituals and why they are important in the workplace, why they are important for you as a leader to ensure their incorporated into your team, dynamic and much, much more. Erica's a best selling author and corporate consultant who specializes in improving professional and personal performance through strengthening relationships and making powerful connections. In her newest book, Rituals Road Map, the human way to transform everyday routines into workplace magic, she examines an immense power that rituals have to create a warm, connected culture where people are engaged, loyal and productive, which can be really difficult to achieve. Right now, before we get started, we know many of our leaders out there are looking to celebrate a tradition of the holidays. If you are looking to give the gift of leadership to your team, a mentor or maybe a mentee, or anyone that you want to help become a leader worth following, we hear at leader casts have just what you need. Leader cast now has insights and solutions for all leaders. Listen to why should be the top of your holiday list. Leader cast now is an online resource for your leadership development. Get the solutions to your leadership challenges on any device at the moment. You need it. To learn more, go to now doubt leader castcom Hi, Erica, I am so excited to take time to speak with you today. I kind of just want to jump right in because your book really impacted me and we have so much content to cover. You talk a lot about rituals and how it impacts leaders and thus teams, but first I want our readers to get to know a little bit about you first. I love your story and how the Spaghetti Project, your company, came to both in concept and a name. Can you start off with telling our listeners a bit more about that and how your passion for bringing the human to work began? Sure, so I would start by showing a couple things. First, if you were to talk to people who've known me my whole life, from Middle School diple the business school to friends you know now, and say to them, if you were to pick one word to describe Erica, what would it be? I would bet ninety nine percent of the people would say they would use the word connector to describe me. That I guess I was born that way. I've always loved connecting people to each other, connecting people to jobs, and worked as an executive recruiter my side hustle. I've set up a bunch of marriages. So it's something just that's...

...been built inside me as a as a person, and so I started working in the human capital space, helping companies improve performance through people, which led me to write bring your human to work. And when I was writing the book I came across this study at a Cornell University that was being done by professor named Kevin Niffin, and Kevin was looking at team performance and really wanted to get a better understanding of what makes one team higher performing, more effective than another team. And what was so cool about Kevin, you know, among many things, is that Kevin's dad was a firefighter, and so he decided to study firefighters and firehouses as part of this of this study, and what he found, the short version, is that the firefighters who were the most dedicated to the ritual of the firehouse meal, sitting around the table, connecting as humans, getting to know each other, it actually correlated with higher levels of performance in those firefighters save more lives. And so for me it really was this goosebump moment of something that I had always known intuitively, both in my personal life and my professional life, and now there was science to back it up. And I started to interview firefighters and read about the firefighters and you know, if you're watch the show Chicago fire, the stereotypical go to wheel for firefighters is Spaghetti, and me fault. So in honor of the firefighters, I call my company the Spaghetti Project, which is a platform that shares the science and stories of connection at work, because the end of the day, when we think about leadership, it all comes down to connection. Spaghetti is saving lives and connecting US across the globe. I love that story, so thank you for sharing with it. I know we're going to talk about rituals and we're going to talk about your book Rituals Road Map, the human way to transform everyday routines into workplace magic. But first let's get a little bit of clarity. I know in my life I have habits, I have routines and I think I have some rituals. Can you help clarify and define what the difference is between habits, routines, rules and rituals? Yes, and it is a great place to start. So what is a ritual? A ritual is something number one, people would miss it and kind of go crazy if it went away and, number two, a ritual is something that rises above its practical youth. So what do I mean by that? So let's say you light a candle. Lighting a candle is not necessarily a ritual, especially if you're lighting a candle because your electricity went out and it's all dark in your room. You have to light a candle to see. But lighting a candle might be a ritual if you are a uson who every you know one of the people that I interview for the book. Every Friday at five, he lights the candle in the afternoon. That helps him...

...transition from the week to the week end and so for him, lighting Mac candle every Friday afternoons is a ritual. It is it is the signing a higher level of meaning. So a he would miss it if it went away. It would feel like something was totally off as something he does every week at the same time and he's not lighting the candle because he doesn't have any light in his in his house. Does that because that makes sense? Yes, it absolutely makes sense. When one other thing that that's kind of interesting that I'll throw in there is when I was asking people and asking companies about their rituals and sometimes people would say I I don't know if I even happity, I discovered this one question that would help me. It would help me help the person I was interviewing come up with their company's rituals or their individual rituals, and the question was, you know, let's take chipotle as an example. It's one of the companies in the book. I would say. I said to Marisa and Rada, who's the chief human resources officer, let's say, okay, Marissa, when do people at chipotle feel the most chipotle ish or most like an employee of chipotle? And so it really help them boil it down to what is the essence of the soul of what we do within this organization and what things do we do that people would go nut if, all of a sudden they went they went away, and that's a great way of doing it. After I read your book, I immediately reach out to someone on our team and said, we have forgotten about some of the things that we do because of this remote time that we're in. It's a good reminder to think about what won't your team Miss. Again, as I was reading through the book, and I told you this before we started, I was fascinated with a read. I also came through the pages and finding all these names that we're familiar with here at leader cast. So Amy Edmondson, rata, Agarwal, PREA Parker, Francesca Gino, all great individuals leader casts interviewed or has it on their stage. I know they have their own rituals in place as leaders and next person their field. So I'm curious what rituals do you have that you own? So one of my personal ritual interestingly led me to write bring your human to work. So I am a coffee drinker. Many people world have coffee rituals and I had my kids pretty close together. was a crazy time. I had twins and then two years later I had another one, and so very chaotic and I found myself I would go to star books every day and get my coffee and I'd sit down and I had my to do list and I was checking off my little boxes and, you know, feeling so productive. Yet all a sudden one day I remember, I realize I'm like, I didn't even taste the coffee, which sort of bump me out because I really do look forward to it every day. So I started to bring more intention to when I was drinking this coffee...

...and instead of just taking it in multitasking and doing work, I would get my coffee and I would sit down and I would put my hands on the cup and feel the heat on my hand and just take in a couple of very deep breath to help me start my start my day. And and that's something that I pretty much do every day, wherever I am. And again it would seem crazy, obviously if I'm summer where there isn't a starbucks, I go somewhere else, but if there is one, you know, sometimes when I'm traveling for work, or used to travel more for work, I would take a hotel that I knew was right here one so I could go and have my ritual and and have my coffee. I have that exact conversation with someone this marting. I can function without coffee or tea in the morning, but I cannot function without the ritual of it. There's something that's comforting about kicking off my day of going through the process of making a cup. There are so many leaders that you've interacted with this book. What do you think is the most common ritual that you saw in leadership? That's a tough one. I mean there's a lot of the company. A lot of the rituals are company specific. But a couple of things. When I think about looking up fross, what what say the leaders said? I would say many leaders in the book and famous people and leaders in general do have mourning rituals. Many of them are getting up very early, you know, whether they get up before they're significant other their kids, so they can really have that time to do that deep thinking, you know, to read the paper, to exercise, to meditate, to have their coffy rituals like us. But I say that's a theme that many high performing people seem to be mourning people and do a lot of that in in the morning. I would also say that one of the best practices with with leaders and organizations is that they that their rituals are aligned with their company values. You know, I talked a lot and bring your human to work, about how do you bring your company values to life and how do you sort of cheesy but often resonates, which is, you know, how do you get those values off the walls and into the halls? And rituals are a way that you can do that, and so that was sort of another theme that I saw with many leaders that it wasn't rituals for rituals fake but they were really thinking about the essence of what their company is and who they stand for, and a lot of the rituals were tied into that. And you just mentioned that many of the rituals were workplace specific. A lot of what you discussed in the book also relates to the fact that they come back to the three piece is psychologically safe, purpose and performance. Can you define these three P's a bit more and how they would relate to the work environment I create? After researching rituals for the last couple of years, I came up with this equation and I called it...

...the three P's. The first P is psychological safety, the second P is purpose, and psychological safety plus purpose equals performance, and the idea is that that rituals do increase performance. So what do I mean by that? First P is psychological safety, and what we found was that rituals give us as humans a greater sense of belonging and psychological safety, which is something that say, more than ever before, we really need right now. And so, for example, what what? What the data shows is that employees who feel psychologically states that work work in teams forty cents, forty seven percent better than those who don't feel psychologically safe, and people who feel psychologically safe have a hundred and six percent more energy, which we know how that can translate into into work. The second P is purpose, and which will give us this amazing opportunity to connect our employees back to purpose, and it's another thing that all of us really want at work. But I'm sure you've seen a mean many arts written over the last couple years talk about millennials and Gen Z and their desire to work in organizations that are purposeful. People want to buy products for companies that are connected to purpose, and so it really does have bottom line implications. And what the study show is that people who work at purpose driven companies are fifty percent more engaged, and one of the biggest issues at work is is lack of engagement. And so if you can turn the dial up by engagement, again, big lot of bottom line implications. And finally, both those together equal more performance, and one of the studies that I often cite is that people, people who work at what we call high trust organizations are actually fifty percent more productive. And that makes sense because if you feel safe and heard, you don't have to you're not as worried as much about the noise, figurative noise, all around. You're doing your job and you're getting it done and you're not worrying about some of these extraneous issues. So those are the three peas and that's why rituals are good for us as people, but also good for business. If you're looking at the three peas and you're in an organization trying to help evaluate where they are with these, what when do you see that lacks the most in business? Do you ever see something that's not there? More often? So I would say a lot of companies are our focus right now on the psychologically safe piece of this versus. I feel like purpose has been on the top of the to do list for a while now, again driven by these new generations that are demanding it. You know, a couple of years ago when I wrote bring your human to work, you know I had a lot of people loved it, a...

...lot of people thought the book, it was a best seller, but I definitely had some people that push back, oh, this is the touchy feeling stuff, and and many of them now are second guessing that because they're realizing, you know, that these new generations are so big and so clear in terms of what they want. I do think the focus now, and companies are doing more work on how do we give people this sense of belonging and they they're talking about it under the umbrella of diversity and inclusion. That you know. We know that. You know it's a more diverse the group is it's better for the bottom line. But if we have a group of very diverse people in our meeting or in our department and we only hear from three people were, it's not going to do us any good because we're not getting the diversity we're not getting the benefits. We're not getting the diversity of thought and so finding ways to make people feel like they really belong and feel safe. It's only then that we really can get the benefit from having the diversity. So I think that's what I'm seeing a lacking and organizations, and it's a huge focus. So, you know, given all the social unrests and if so much going on right now, and I've seen, I think every day I see a new person they know many companies that have never even had ahead of diversity inclusion room now finally getting around and bringing one on. So I'd say that's an area that we're many companies are focused, and let's dive into that because I have a couple questions. I came out of this the idea of belonging you had mentioned. Also, if we're left to our own devices, we're just not going to connect and it's hurting us. This really struck me because I'm seeing it more in a virtual climate than I've ever seen it looking at friends and companies across the globe. We know that companies have always struggled with this, even before when we were in person. You just said it again. In the data supports that now that we're in a virtual environment, we're seeing it more and more. What is a first step that a leader can take to overcome this? When I say left whone devices, we're not connecting. What do people need to do? They need to be intentional, because if we're not intentional, it's not going to happen. And you know, I saw this a lot during when I we were quarantine. So I thought, okay, I'm not commuting, I'm not getting on airplanes, I'm going to have all this time. Yet the day would go by or the week would go by and I hadn't done what I said I you know, really it's aspired to do. And so one of the questions that I asked myself and ask many people when we're talking about these these issues, is does your calendar reflect your values and the values of your organization? And I'll say to people if I'm giving an in person talk or now a virtual talk, look, usually I don't tell people to take up their phones, but take out your phone. How did you spend your time last week? You know what were you doing? And if one of your goals is to be more connected with your team, with your customers or clients, with your...

...boss, that your directly ports with the person you mentor. You know it's not rocket sign it, but put it in your calendar and make it happen. And you know, I often say this is not rocket signs, but it doesn't make it easy and if you're not intentional, at least in my own experience, it's not going to magically happen, especially now, given how much stress people are under and all the things going on. And as you talk about this kind of belonging to this community and having that connection piece, I think leader sometimes really struggle with that. I know that I have set up barriers in the past of being like, Oh, I'm your superior now I can't necessarily be your friend. Right now there's concerns about favoritism, not being able to separate work from home, not to mention the lines are completely blurred right now. At this moment, why is it important for leaders to bring their whole cells to work and embrace those soft skills and embrace their team? It's an interesting time to ask that question and the reason is, you know, like I was saying before, I wrote the first book and some people really do believe some people don't agree with that. You know, work is work and home is home and we're going to draw that line. So you know, I disagree with that. But if we fast forward to where we are today, when we're commuting from our kitchen to our living room or to our Home Office, the lines are blurred. And if you are a leader and you need to manage the stress of this pandemic and you need to keep your business aflow, you need your employees to be open and honest with you about what is going on in their lives so that you can provide support to help them. So if you've a group of people working on project and you know you don't know that t people, you know one is dealing with, you know, a someone in their family that is that is sick, or the kids, their home, whatever it is, and if they try to cover that up, it's going to be much more difficult to meet a deadline or deliver what you need to deliver to the client. So what I'm finding is the leaders who are leading by example, walking the walk, sharing the Thea town hall via emails. I mean I have a bunch of CEOS I can share the examples that have been writing these weekly misses or, you know, daily emails to their employees and it started off giving the status update of the business and what and making sure everybody was safe and able to plug in and work from home. But it morphed into the leaders saying, you know what, even in even in my life like this is. This is really hard right now with what is is going on, and the more a leader can can share what's going on in their lives, the good, the...

...bad and the ugly, the more likely their employees will share it back to them and then the leader could help them figure out how to solve it. But if they don't know what's going on and people are trying to sweep in under the rug, yes, it's bad for your individual employees and the team and morale, but it's also really bad for business. And so I think there's never been a stronger case for leaders bringing their whole self and and leading by example. Having that authentic moment is so important with your employees so they feel that trust and reciprocate it. I couldn't agree with that comment more, especially in this remote work environment that we are I'm curious to how you've spoken about the ritual's people have in their workplace. Many of those rituals were actually in a building, a brick and mortar as people had to reimagine their space and go virtual. And now we're coming back are using a blend of virtuals or a change of virtuals that were in their environment because of the disruption that we had yes so many, many companies have changed. You know, they're eating together ritual to doing it remote, and you know, they're also creating new rituals. One company shared they have a ritual, since everybody's remote, of they get on or at the end of the meeting everybody's like doing this this wave goodbye, and it happened very organically and then after the meeting somebody video tapes everybody waving goodbye and said, you know, see you next week. And it's sort of become a thing. It's become a ritual. And many of the best rituals just are or, you know, it's organic. They just sort of appear and nobody even remembers who started it. What I think interesting, though, is that you know, some organizations everybody's gone back, some everybody's home, and now there's also this hybrid. What I do think is going to start to happen is there's we need to figure out what this new normal is going to look like and, you know, I believe that there's going to be a huge shift so that, if you're allowed to work from home permanently, get some people go back in. There might be certain meetings where everybody comes in, where for the strategy meeting or the planning meeting, you know, certain things that are better done in person. There might be rituals more around the beginning of the day, the end of the day, and I think we're just sort of starting to figure out what this is going to look like, especially if, and I do believe we're going to have this hybrid situation one, because right now every company's doing it differently, but once there's a batting of companies like Google and facebook that are saying, you know what, you can work remote forever, and so I think there's going to be it's going to have a big impact on rituals and I do think they're going to have to rethink what kind of work can always be done at home and what kind of work do we really need to do together,...

...and I think they're going to start to build new rituals around that, you know, instead of the off site that we all used to code do it. Maybe will be the on site you know, or something like that. Great Point. As I know, people are starting to slowly merge back in. Even here at lead our cast, we've talked about what rituals can we keep? What kind of traditions can we get back to you as we look at the pattern that's going to come down the front. I want to kind of jump to your time as a team member and how rituals can really impact that process. You let us through a journey within the book and the first one is all about on boarding. Due to the pandemic and how it impacted much of our professional worlds, it's going to be a pretty competitive market for employment pretty soon. More people are going to start looking for a job if they haven't already, and it's going to have so many people wondering now what is the best way to on board our employees? We do a favorite list here leader casts. When employee joins, we get their favorites to feel their first day. We have a couple celebrations, things like that. I would like to know what is really stuck out to you as an onboarding ritual. Well, when I interviewed a lot of these companies, it was before the pandemic, so I can talk about it from both perspectives. But just one really fun example that was pretty pre covid was, and again I talked earlier about the importance and some of these great rituals are really linked to company values and the company history. I interviewed Daniel Lubski, who's the founder and now the effective chairman of kind snacks and they've all the kind bars and one of their rituals was as part of their on boarding they would take all the people that started within a quarter and they'd meet with Daniel, and not just for like a fly by a twenty minutes with the CEO, but he would spend a couple of hours with employees talking about the history of kind and you know what it means and where it comes from. You know with his parents, were grandparents were Holocaust survivors and know just how that led him to think about the impact of kindness and and you know it was amazing for the employees to get to spend time with the founder and really get immersed in the history. But then what was really cool, and that kind of makes kind kind, is they each group got they would they would get to know each other sort of outside of work and give their little cohort name and to stay that stay together more connected. Even after the the beginning, they were always part of that. You know, the fall of two thousand and seventeen class that started together, and each cohort would be given a budget to make a music video and they're just some really funny stories and the people who are currently working there would be so psyche to see the new music video of the new cohort. Just something fun and and kind of Quirky. I would say across the board, what's most important, whether it's, you know, if everybody's doing...

...remote on boarding or in person, is realizing and remembering that you only get one chance to make a first impression and nobody likes to feel out of sorts on that first day. You know, before the pandemic. You know what do I wear, where do I park? How do things work? And so the best on boarding is, you know, doing things like you were saying, you do, getting their favorites and you know, if you're remote, sending a big package with swag in it and we're welcoming you. I like the idea of assigning someone a buddy like not even somebody on your team, but who's the person that you can ask all the dumb questions to? You know about meetings and about when? Do you know? What time do most people start working to the camera? Everybody have their camera on during every meeting, and I think that first today, that first week, to be really try to have a lot of the time being curated so the person has a lunch the first day and people are checking in and I guess I think it's really hard to all of a sudden feel like you're missing out and not to feel that sense of psychological safety and belonging, you know, having a conversation about the values, about the ritual. You know, these are the kinds of things that make us up, and the more the person can understand through on boarding, the some of the quirkiness about the culture, the more comfortable they're going to feel. And the leader cast favorite list that we have. I don't know when that started. It's definitely something that's been around for a while. But let's say you're a leader and you want to start something new. You want to start a new ritual, but you want to also think those who have been there in the past. Do you have any advice for people to streamline this in while not forgetting the teammates that are currently there and could have possibly missed out on something cool. Yeah, I mean I think it's talking about just having a very open conversation about the evolution of rich rituals, or or even in incorporating and including the team members to get their input, you know, on the ritual and how can we make it better. I think if you make people part of that process, they're going to feel less upset about a piece of something, you know, going going away. You know, I think that's always the and and if there is a piece of something that's going to go away, have making sure that they understand, you know why. Maybe it's because all of a sudden were promote or their pieces of it that aren't aren't working, because what you don't want to see happen is, you know, puts part of that definition of a ritual like people go crazy if it went away. So, unless it's really hurting something and something's working, you know, I would I would, you know, go slowly in terms of making these changes and the more that you can involve people, the better. Collaboration and transparency are so important and so many leadership qualities. This is one of those that would be yeah, especially when...

...you're taking away maybe something fun, and I want to talk about that. I want to talk about the celebrations, because this is a hard spot for many leaders. They see either it's a waste of time a waste of money. You explain a lot of data and why it's well worth our time to celebrate. As a leader, how do you communicate this up, if necessary, if you believe in the value of it? So if you have leadership above you and you want to celebrate and show that, what is the best way to go along and collecting that data to show the productivity? Yeah, I mean people, people want to feel seen, they and they want to feel valued. You know almost more, and many of these things are more important to people, especially. You know, I would urge people to you know, bringings when you're meeting with your superior and you know, I'm happy to follow up and I can send you some information as well, like on the very specific studies that support this. When you're trying to make a change, it's always beneficial to go in with not just stories but also data and science behind why, behind why this matters and for many people, even more than compensation. They want to feel scene and heard on the job. It's just part of part of human nature. And also many of these things, you know, I talked earlier about how it's not rocket science. These things also don't have to cost anything. You know, I give a lot of examples in the book. You know, do something that org passes around, you know, a stuffed penguin, and there's not even a new penguin every week. It's the same penguin that's just getting getting pass from one person to the next. It literally costs nothing. and Are you finger the the CEO share with me recently that the penguin during during the pandemic, was passed doing new employee for going above and beyond. You know, she had been hired into, I think she said, the business development team, and there wasn't much going on in that team. They sort of twist your job and she's working in both groups and people just felt like they they wanted to recognize her and she sent Aria a note saying, you know, this is going to fume me and keep me going. It meant so much to her and that is pricelist from an engagement and productivity standpoint. I mean, she is ready to go above and beyond for this organization, even when days are tough, and there's plenty of tough days right now. And so it goes back to the left, to our own devices. We're not connecting or we're not celebrating. It is not rocket science. You just should build it in and do it. One other quick example I can share is amy would all, who's the CEO of a Houston based agency called black sheep, and every they are moving at such a fast page and she shared with me that we they never make time to share and celebrate the the winds, even the small ones. And so they started a ritual literally ten years ago where every Friday they would...

...have a champagne toast and celebrate the you know, the end of the week ritual. And this kind of ties this question back to original one of your earlier questions about the three P's. And she said, you know, we all went home. We have a very imperson culture. All of a sudden we're all working from home, and the first Friday that came around when they were remote, they did their champagne toast and there was just this amazing sense of this psychological safety and belonging to this group and people saying. You know what, I'm really scared out of my mind right now, but I know that we're going to be okay. And so, in many ways, you know, that small ritual, it was really priceless from from you know and in that moment on us. It's a productivity perspective, but just connect it to purpose and, you know, a human it's a it's a human issue and it's and it's helping the people in the company and then the people in the company want to turn around and help and help their business and help their clients. If you can make advocates out of your own employees, it's the best way to go. It's the productivity piece you're talking about. Yeah, this is all great information. I know I said I loved your book and I think you have a little treat for our listeners up there. Yes, I'm I'm really excited. So I always love to hear what people what resonated with people in this podcast, you know, especially because it's, you know, coming out soon, and I can really hear from your listeners what you know, what they liked or what they wanted to hear more of. So I would say that all your listeners, you know, send me an email that Erica at Spaghetti projectcom and reference this amazing podcast and tell me something that that you learned or that you like, or even just say hello. And I'm going to do a rapple and give away a couple of free books. And you know, I want, I really want people to read this book and to get it out in the world and would love to choose a couple of year readers and send one to them wherever they are in the world. Amazing. It's always great to have this piece of collateral in their hands because I know right now we need this connection more than ever. So thank you for that giveaway to our listeners everyone. Just reminder, make sure you email Erica and you have a chance to win this raffle Erka's. We wrap up. We like to end every episode of the leader cast podcast with one question that ties back to the mission of building leaders worth following. In your opinion, what makes the leader worth following? You know, a leader worth following, minis answer probably won't surprise you, but a a leader worth following is one who brings his or for humans to work. And in this context, in this moment, it's leaders who are willing to be real and to speak...

...in a human voice, to be vulnerable and and to be willing to really connect with with his or her employees in this in this moment. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Erica. As we examined our rituals can lead to more productivity, a psychologically safe environment and, of course, purpose driven team members. Her book rituals wrote map the human way to transform everyday routine into workplace magic, will be available in January two thousand and twenty one, but as a reminder, you can email her at Erica at Spaghetti Projectcom to be entered into our raffles. If you want to connect with Erica beyond email, feature to find her on Linkedin and twitter, as well as Erica Keswincom. As always, eatercast it's here to provide you with more content as you travel on your leadership journey. Be sure to check out the leadercast website and connect with us through our blog, newsletters, webinars and on demand video library. I leadercastcom. If you'd like what you heard today, please share, rate and review this podcast. Check out our previous episodes and subscribe so you never miss the latest. We wish you good health. And Safety for you and your family during this season of our world. Thank you for tuning in to the leadercast podcast. Now go be a leader worth following. According to research from Edelman and Linkedin, almost sixty percent of decision makers said that thought leadership led them to awarding business to an organization. Sweet Phish media helps marketing teams turn their executives into industry thought leaders. Learn more by visiting sweet phish MEDIACOM leader cast. Thanks for tuning in to the leader cast podcast. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.

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